Last post on Aug 29, 2007 at 7:27 AM
You are in the Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions
This discussion is ARCHIVED. To reactivate the discussion, post a request in the Lost? Ask the Hybrids Host for directions! discussion.
What is this discussion about?
Diesel, Hybrid Cars
#356 of 395 Re: Correction, My error [goodcrd]
Nov 24, 2006 (2:34 pm)
Toyota is more likely to buy GM.
#357 of 395 Re: Correction, My error [terry92270]
Nov 24, 2006 (3:11 pm)
People seem to have a very short memory when it comes to Toyota and GM. GM has put the Capital monies up for joint ventures between the two for the best part of the last thirty years. Get intimate with the braking systems and engine on these two manufacturers. You will find some of the engine designs being swapped, sold or shared between the two. What is the I-force engine based on? I may be about 5 years off on the 23%, but you need to know the history of these two. GM is not going away. Different parts of the company yes. Don't be so short sited. GM as far as Hybrids are way ahead. They just don't see a viable market at this time. What penny pinching average Joe is going to pay 6 to 8K more for the same model vehicle and only get about 20% better MPGs. Ok for the slow people 30MPG +20% is 36MPG. Most people can't wait 5 to 10 years to recoup the added costs of the Hybrid system. Look at what price GM is going to Offer the Saturn VUE Hybrid. It will be equal in cost to the Honda Civic. A family can fit in it and still get about 32 on the highway. GM is changing to meet Market conditions. This is just a bump in the road.
#358 of 395 Re: Correction, My error [goodcrd]
Nov 24, 2006 (3:26 pm)
Well, time will tell, won't it? GM's only profitable division is its financial services companies, like GMAC/DITECH. Same with Ford. They will go under with their pension obligations unless they get help. That much isn't in dispute. Perhaps they can turn it around......perhaps.
#359 of 395 Re: Correction, My error [terry92270]
Nov 24, 2006 (5:34 pm)
Valid point with the pensions. But one much overlooked and ignored problem is employee accountability when it comes to work performance and quality. The unions don't allow it. Unions will always blame management for not being able to compete. These unions with their unwillingness to allow these companies to compete will put their members out of work just like the Big Steel Mills. I've always believed when you work for someone else you work like your working for yourself. (Now you can say I'm ranting!)
#360 of 395 Re: Correction, My error [goodcrd]
Nov 25, 2006 (11:41 am)
People seem to have a very short memory when it comes to Toyota and GM. GM has put the Capital monies up for joint ventures between the two for the best part of the last thirty years. Get intimate with the braking systems and engine on these two manufacturers. You will find some of the engine designs being swapped, sold or shared between the two. What is the I-force engine based on?
Cite specific references, please. Otherwise I do accept your opinion although it may not be factual.
I used to sell steel to NUMMI, the JV in Fremont, when it first began so I know a little about the history there. Now if you go back into the 50-60's then yes often people dropped a Chevy engine into an FJ, but that was an aftermarket mod.
If you have specific references I'd love to see them. TIA.
#361 of 395 Re: Correction, My error [goodcrd]
Nov 25, 2006 (11:45 am)
These unions with their unwillingness to allow these companies to compete will put their members out of work just like the Big Steel Mills. I've always believed when you work for someone else you work like your working for yourself. (Now you can say I'm ranting!)
Now this is true. I was in the steel business for 25 yrs and sold to the Big 3 at that time. The situation of Big Steel is a precursor to what is occuring now with the detroiters. It's nearly the same only 20 yrs later. One other key difference is that it was Americans that killed the old Steel dinosauers. Ken Iverson and his mini-mill innovators were too quick and too efficient for the big mills.
#362 of 395 Re: Correction, My error [kdhspyder]
Nov 25, 2006 (12:23 pm)
I don't care about "you" accepting my "Opinion". I'd don't accept yours either. NUMMI was done with GM Capital and Toyota's production practices. So what. Time will tell. Toyota has great PR. Look at the development of Toyota's "I-force" engine and see what I'm talking about. Good Luck.
#363 of 395 GM Expertise in Diesel Hybrid transit
Nov 25, 2006 (9:05 pm)
This was taken from
"engine and a hybrid transmission consisting of two 100 kW motors and a 600-volt, nickel metal hydride battery pack. The engine is coupled to an electronically variable transmission that provides an infinite range of gear ratios to drive the wheels."
After some digging I found that Cummins engines in the 250-280Hp are the prime movers for the above. And a max service speed of 65mph was quoted.
First I have to say no hybrid bus can be that efficient that still needs to install a Cummins 280Hp diesel that is probably running full time in summer to power a 6 ton A/C for driver comfort.
Second when route averages are often below 10 mph in urban areas having a vehicle capable of 65 mph is somewhat overspec'd for the job, wouldn't you say ?
GM Allison can't take all the blame. After all, it's not an electrical engineer's signature that appears on their customer order form.
Recently I came across a study by two researchers in Britain which found the same insanity exists there.
They discovered that diesel operators received a fuel subsidy whereas operators of electric surface transport and light rail transit did not. In fact they received no government credits at all although it was the stated aim of the government to reduce vehicle pollution in cities !
Making phone calls to manufacturers revealed that with a replacement of only 3000 buses a year in Britain this was not a big enough market for them to get seriously interested. Hence the miniscule progress in the last 25 years.
Bus systems were not properly specified for the routes and this incurred much greater expense than needed.
On a personal note I still remember back in 1965 a driver remarking that he was told that his vehicle, a brand new 85 seater doubledecker Leland 'Atlantean', was capable of 100mph although we were both aware none of these vehicles would be permitted to exceed 40mph 'in service'.
The researchers concluded that amongst other things that buses limited to 90Kw powerplants in order to be eligible for goverment funding would promote a less cavalier approach to vehicle design. Levelling of the playing field by eliminating fuel subsidies would also ensure 'sound' decisions by local authorities for encouraging the adoption of greener technology.
#364 of 395 Re: GM Expertise in Diesel Hybrid transit [toyolla2]
Nov 27, 2006 (10:12 am)
"After some digging I found that Cummins engines in the 250-280Hp are the prime movers for the above. And a max service speed of 65mph was quoted." The main reason Cummins ILS engines are being the prime movers is costs. A 50 series Detroit is almost twice the cost of a similar Cummins. When your talking 18 to 25K per engine. Detroits take more abuse and produce more torque. The Cummins is designed with a Cylinder head gasket which tend to fail around 120,000 miles. The costs of a replacement Cummins is around 8K. The detroit costs more to rebuild. It's simple dollars and cents. And in the US Mass Transit the government regulates what you can spend their money on. The cost of light rail or Electric Mass Transit is not so much the vehicles but the infastructure. maintenance costs. Bus fleet cost per mile is around $2.40 while rail is $3.00+. These costs are Operating not Capital. The Capital costs for Rail are much higher. 300,000 per bus and 1,000,000+ per light rail vehicle.
As for being overspeced. No theses Hybrid buses also need to travel on expressways at 55 MPH or 65 MPH depending what types of service is being required. Also Mass Transit systems are required in Emergencies to provide support. And a forty foot transit bus can safely move 60+ people at one time without being restricted to an external electrical power source which fail from time to time.
#365 of 395 Biodiesel/Electric Solar PLUG-IN Hybrid Concept at LA Auto Show
Nov 27, 2006 (2:32 pm)
Check this pup:
The Sandstorm, from the Hyundai Kia America Design Center, steers close to the familiar look of the classic dune buggy. Eco points for this "biodiesel electric plug-in hybrid" would come from features including solar-powered cooling, detachable recycling bins and recyclable polyethylene terephthalate (PETE) panels, so that riders can quickly change the color scheme to suit the mood.