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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Hybrid Diesels? 
395 messages, Last post on Aug 29, 2007 at 7:27 AM
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Replying to: larsb (Oct 26, 2006 6:14 am) The biggest problem is cost. As you know many communities would adopt the hybrid buses. They have a tremendous price difference. Last study I read by a municipality the payback was 57.5 years. No bus will last near that long. Average cost of a conventional diesel bus is $300k. Average diesel/hybrid bus is $500k to $600k depending on manufacturer. Advertised fuel economy gain 30%. Actual gain over regular diesel bus is as little as 10%, according to the study done by the Connecticut department of Transportation. |
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Here is that study. Pretty comprehensive. Any city thinking of buying new buses should look at all options. If you have Natural gas it may be a better choice than a diesel/hybrid bus. http://www.ct.gov/dot/LIB/dot/documents/dresearch/CT-170-1884-3-04-5.pdf Who have bought hybrid buses? State by state count. http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-transit-buses.html
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Replying to: larsb (Oct 26, 2006 6:14 am) Well, I don't think it really eliminates the need. You are right, of course, that the electric drive would add to the pickup, but in a diesel, the turbo helps in more ways than just acceleration. Due to the very high compression ratio in a diesel engine, it requires quite a bit of air. More than a gasser. So even at highway speeds, a turbo is helping to get enough air into the cylinders so the engine runs more efficiently. At least, this is my understanding. PLUS, on the power side, why take away that which makes a diesel appealing by today's standards? With a turbo, today's diesels can keep up with the gasser alternatives. Without it, power-hungry folks (myself included) would not want to make the performance sacrifice and pick the diesel alternative. |
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If going to diesel could be done at no cost, fine, but adding a diesel to a hybrid, while certainly improving mileage, likely would not pay. This is the hardest thing to understand - going from, say, 25 mpg to 50 mpg generates much more savings than going from 50 mpg to 75 mpg. Over 100,000 miles, going from 25 mpg (4000 gallons used) to 50 mpg (2000 gallons used) saves 2000 gallons (which means you'd have to drive 50,000 just to pay off the $2800 spent on a hybrid Civic, assuming $2.80/gallon!). Now, assume a diesel hybrid gets 75 mpg. It would use 1333 gallons over 100,000 miles, a savings of only 667 gallons from 50 mpg, one third the savings from the 25 - 50 mpg step. Using the $1400 increment for a diesel Jetta, it would take about 75,000 miles to pay off the cost. If you start with a diesel to get to 50 mpg (25,000 miles to pay that off), then add the hybrid mechanism for $2800 additional to get to 75 mpg, it'll take 150,000 miles to pay that off. Way too long for any mass market. A better question is this - why hybrids at all, if a diesel can get about the same milage improvement for 1/2 the cost? I'm looking forward to Honda's new diesels.
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Replying to: texases (Oct 26, 2006 9:39 am) You are way too practical and logical for this thread 
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Replying to: midnightcowboy (Sep 13, 2006 10:54 am) It's all in what you want to drive. |
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Replying to: terry92270 (Oct 20, 2006 8:10 am)
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 26, 2006 10:35 am) I don't know if most people can afford that luxury.....and make their choice somewhere in the middle, which would be cheaper than two automobiles. Now if a married couple are both working, both commuting, I can see that.
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I can't see how smart people on this board cannot understand that a diesel/hybrid is the best of two GOOD WORLDS and not a mixture of a GOOD WORLD and a BAD WORLD. Some of you act like hybridizing a diesel is an insult to diesel technology, when in reality that is not true or sensible at all. Here's some logic for you: If a diesel is ALREADY more efficient than a comparable gasser, and hybridization makes a gasser even MORE efficient, then a diesel which is hybridized will be the ultimate in efficiency. Who cares about adding "complexity" when the result is an awesome, awesome vehicle in regard to lowered pollution and superior (unsurpassed) gas mileage? Are we to say that "diesels are ALREADY PERFECT and cannot be improved upon so just leave it alone?" That attitude is nonsensical and would lead to stagnation. Honda engineers saw the chance to build a clean, efficient diesel engine and built a car which set 19 world records. That's called applying new ideas to old technology. Just like a 3600 pound 5-passenger 4-door diesel hybrid car which can get 70+ MPG will be, which is what I am waiting for.
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Replying to: texases (Oct 26, 2006 9:39 am) What is half the cost? This is the key unknown factor in the diesel equation now. What will be the 'extra' cost. If one compares the two closest vehicles most recently, the Jetta TDI and Prius ( both being the same size and directed to the same market ), the price difference was negligible. If the diesel Accord does come out and is priced in the $23000 range then it will likely be a success. If it's in the $26000 range then it's the same price as the TCH ( assuming similar equipment ). My guess is that Honda will price it in the higher range if only not to 'leave any money on the table'. Toyota and Honda always keep each other in sight here in this market. If Toyota is selling the TCH in the $27-$30K range Honda is not likely to give up making money selling to the same segment. Cost and Selling Price often have little to do with one another. My own guess is that Toyota, Honda and Hyundai all could sell their midsized vehicles under $20K and survive. It might squeeze the retailers until they sweat blood but it's possible, IMO. |
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