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#763 of 5290 Re: A Different Kind Of Hybrid [usbseawolf2000]
Oct 18, 2004 (6:26 am)
With regard to fuel cell technology, I mentioned excessive cost and refueling issues as deterrents towards sales to a typical car buyer, BUT this does not make fuel cell technology unrealistic. There are a few Honda FCX, certified by EPA and being used by agencies in California making it the first production fuel cell vehicle in the USA.
By your definition, CNG powered vehicles are not a reality either! At least not until now when Civic GX finally opens up for sale at dealerships this year after years of existence as a fleet-only vehicle.
Back to hybrid cars and technology, I will gladly dissect your conclusions that are supposed to ďenlightenĒ me while being based on presumptions:
Donít take concept car spec very seriously
Dual Note was a prototype, a step ahead of being just a concept. And I take things for what they are, sometimes to educate myself about the future. Couple of prototypes led to Insight. While I donít expect to see Dual Note reach production as is, it tells me something (you can ignore it if it makes you uncomfortable). Donít go on imposing your presumptions on others.
Issue is, how large or expensive ultra capacitor will be? What if the whole trunk is full of UC pack?
Only if you knew. Dual Note was a mid-engine sedan prototype, with a short front end. There was a reason I posted a side profile of the sedan. Except for ATTS and in-wheel electric motors at the front, the rest of the drive train sat behind the rear seat.
Expense is another issue. UC is expected to be more expensive than batteries (BTW, how much does the battery pack in 400h cost?). The upside to UC isÖ it is a one time investment. So, it will make sense in upscale hybrid vehicles at least until the initial cost can come down (and eventually should), also as the technology advances. Weíre already talking about cell phones using ultra capacitors instead of batteries. Honda has ventured into developing UC pack on its own, (FCX is using Honda UC pack).
What if the UC pack only delivered 150 HP for split second?
And what if it didnít? Do you realize, how vague this sounds? The 100 HP in Dual Note came from three electric motors, and this wasnít your typical IMA set up that you have seen in the three hybrids from Honda.
That is what I derived from current mass produced production hybrid car sold to the public to drive on public road for at least 150,000 miles.
And did you take into account current/voltage requirement based on design? Or did you assume everything based off a specific design?
For couple of years, Honda hasnít been shy of mentioning a hybrid vehicle for Acura, at least not since Acura RDX was revealed at 2002 NAIAS. Acura has just announced production of a smaller than MDX SUV in Ohio and rumors dominate this being the RDX. Now, this compact SUV had hybrid power in prototypical form, with two 30 HP electric motors mounted on the rear wheels.
If this were to be true, are you suggesting that RDX will require 4.6 times (physically) larger battery pack than one used in Civic Hybrid? Yes, or No.
Does Accord Hybrid use a 23% (physically) larger battery pack than Civic Hybrid? Yes, or No.
If you find a race hybrid car that is an exception, well duh! Do you know the capacity of it's battery in Amp Hour(AH)? Will the pack last 150,000 miles or just 24 hours? Many more things to consider.
Like what? The bottom line was size of battery pack. You have conveniently skipped that part. And this race car was developed in the late 90s, using NiMH technology available back then.
You are trying to argue that just because concept/race car can do it, it means production car must as well. A very weak argument.
A race car did it in 1998, where weight and packaging are of greater issue in a racing vehicle that weighs only 2400 lb. This is far from being a weak argument. As a matter of fact, you havenít shown an argument in this regard at all!
Honda is on their 3rd generation of IMA and their future hybrids should have similar design as well. Did you just imply that major changes need to be done in order for IMA to have high power electric motor(s)? I agree.
Without major changes in an evolving technology, you cannot follow a progression needed to be competitive. In case of Toyota, do you think a major, or a minor change was involved going from Prius I to Prius II? And what about 400H. Is it going to use identical set up as Prius II? Yes, or No.
#764 of 5290 Hybrids too costly according to the British
Oct 18, 2004 (7:00 am)
Hybrid cars 'too costly'
18 October 2004, This Is Money
FOUR out of five drivers would buy a 'greener' car if it was worth their while but many find the cost of new hybrid vehicles prohibitive, new research reveals.
Although 80% of motorists know that a hybrid car could be better for the environment, people arenít prepared to make the financial sacrifice necessary to buy one of them.
Research from the Energy Savings Trust, a policy analysis group that promotes sustainable use of energy, shows that just 12% of drivers would change from a conventional car to a hybrid without some form of incentive.
Richard Tarboton, head of the transport energy business unit at the EST, said: 'Road transport is the UK's second largest contributor to climate change and emissions from vehicles are not only harming our environment but also our health.
'These results clearly show that the majority of people in the UK are starting to take these issues seriously and want to see improvements.
'Carefully targeted financial incentives are available through our own transport energy programmes in the form of grants towards the cost of low-carbon vehicles and emissions reduction technologies.'
The EST claims that up to 24,000 people die in the UK every year as a result of poor air quality Ė and it has grants available to help anyone buy a cleaner vehicle with lower levels of carbon dioxide.
Electric hybrid vehicles are powered by a combination of petrol and electricity. They have a petrol engine and a separate electric motor powered by an energy storage device such as a battery pack. All hybrids use 'regenerative braking', which means that energy is put back into the battery when the vehicle brakes Ė this improves energy efficiency and reduces brake wear. Hybrid technologies improve fuel efficiency and therefore provide considerable fuel savings compared to a normal petrol vehicle.
Current models include the Toyota Prius, Honda Insight and Honda Civic IMA.
The disadvantage of electric hybrid vehicles is the initial purchase cost. Although running expenses are typically two-thirds of the cost of equivalent petrol-fuelled vehicles, it usually costs between £1,000-3,000 more to buy a new electric hybrid than its conventional equivalent.
#765 of 5290 Re: Hybrids too costly according to the British [gagrice]
Oct 18, 2004 (7:29 am)
Although this is the UK view of the issue, I think it's interesting that 3 out of the 4 hybrid cars/SUVs currently for sale in the U.S. have an MSRP starting at a little over $20k, and the average price of a new car in the U.S. is $28k. That leads me to believe that people don't buy hybrids because the cost is prohibitive, but that they prefer larger vehicles to what is currently available in hybrid form. We'll see if the availability of the HAH and, next year, larger hybrid SUVs, will make a difference.
#766 of 5290 Re: A Different Kind Of Hybrid [little_pogi]
Oct 18, 2004 (7:44 am)
Getting 200HP on a 2L engine is possible with some modifications and add-ons.
Actually Honda/Acura does it everyday in standard engines:
Acura 2005 RSX-S 2L 210 hp
Honda 2005 S2000 2L 240 hp
Oct 18, 2004 (7:51 am)
The Houston Atuomobiles in Motion was an awesome car show; free admission, free parking, free lunch, free drive all sorts of cars, trucks and SUVs coming to San Antonio and Dallas soon.
Anyway I drove a Siverado Hybrid. Very interesting the auto-stop was smooth and would shut down engine automatically. They shortened the drive shaft and inserted a MG that used electric power for up to 13 mph from three standard lead cell bateries. Above 13 mph or under heavier accerltion the ICE powers up and the MG becomes a genrator that can recharge batteries as will as supply 10Kwatts power ;tools, PCs, etc. .
Not much improvement in mpg about 20 mpg overall (actaully pretty good for a full-sized truck).
Built on exact same platform as normal Silverados, $2,500 option. Shortend driveshaft and 3 additioanl lead-acid batteries.
#768 of 5290 Re: Hybrids too costly according to the British [backy]
Oct 18, 2004 (12:01 pm)
I think the difference is in Europe they have great handling clean burning diesel cars that compete with the hybrids. The Prius is over priced for that market. I would take an Accord diesel over a Prius any day of the week. They are probably about the same price. In places like California and NY the selection of high mileage cars does not require all the fingers on one hand to count. For the richest country in the world we are deprived of a lot of decent choices in vehicles.
#769 of 5290 Accord Diesel will kill the Prius and other HSDs
Oct 18, 2004 (12:26 pm)
If Accord brings there new diesel Accord to the USA then I think Prius and other HS hybrid implementations sals and residuals will plumet. Prius serve a needs right now, abiet somewhat high priced to be a true TCO solution. but hey after the intial sunk cost (purchase price) the Prius is very economical.
Maybe they are waiting on low sulpher regulations in USA to take effect.
#770 of 5290 Re: Hybrids too costly according to the British [gagrice]
Oct 18, 2004 (12:43 pm)
European market has plenty of differences from the American market. Now, in Europe (UK to be specific), Honda sells a Civic Diesel and the Civic Hybrid. The hybridís on-the-road price is 1000 pound higher (15.1K compared to 14.1K). Fuel economy is virtually identical (combined mileage 57.7 mpg for Hybrid, 56.5 mpg for Diesel).
Typically, gasoline engines donít do as well as CTD engines in terms of CO2 emissions, but in case of hybrid, it is lower (116 for hybrid versus 134 for diesel). And other emissions (that US market cares about) are much better from the hybrid.
However, a typical European buyer has to look beyond all that. If diesel is considerably cheaper (unlike USA), small advantages (emissions and mileage) and a premium (regardless of how much it is), will not be enough to make up for it.
Now, in the USA, we will have to wait and see how diesels are accepted, and how they perform. Hybrids will continue to keep coming, that is for sure.
#771 of 5290 Re: Accord Diesel will kill the Prius and other HSDs [midnightcowboy]
Oct 18, 2004 (1:41 pm)
I think that depends on how much the Accord diesel costs vs. hybrid options like the HAH and upcoming Camry and Altima hybrids. If there is only 1000 GBP difference between the diesel and hybrid, I can see many buyers opting for the (gas/electric) hybrid.
#772 of 5290 Re: Accord Diesel will kill the Prius and other HSDs [backy]
Oct 18, 2004 (2:21 pm)
If there is only 1000 GBP difference between the diesel and hybrid, I can see many buyers opting for the (gas/electric) hybrid.
Why do you think they would pay a 1000 Pounds more if the MPG were close to equal? That is assuming all the other options were equal. That is about $1800 more with no realized gain in economy.