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Hybrids in the News - READ ONLY

5290 messages,  Last post on Oct 25, 2006 at 8:37 AM

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#5235 of 5290
Re: a sad story [larsb] by texases
Sep 28, 2006 (9:34 am)

Replying to: larsb (Sep 28, 2006 6:31 am)

If going to diesel could be done at no cost, fine, but adding a diesel to a hybrid, while certainly improving mileage, likely would not pay. This is the hardest thing to understand - going from, say, 25 mpg to 50 mpg generates much more savings than going from 50 mpg to 75 mpg. Over 100,000 miles, going from 25 mpg (4000 gallons used) to 50 mpg (2000 gallons used) saves 2000 gallons (which means you'd have to drive 50,000 just to pay off the $2800 spent on a hybrid Civic, assuming $2.80/gallon!). Now, assume a diesel hybrid gets 75 mpg. It would use 1333 gallons over 100,000 miles, a savings of only 667 gallons from 50 mpg, one third the savings from the 25 - 50 mpg step. Using the $1400 increment for a diesel Jetta, it would take about 75,000 miles to pay off the cost. If you start with a diesel to get to 50 mpg (25,000 miles to pay that off), then add the hybrid mechanism for $2800 additional to get to 75 mpg, it'll take 150,000 miles to pay that off. Way too long for any mass market. A better question is this - why hybrids at all, if a diesel can get about the same milage improvement for 1/2 the cost? I'm looking forward to Honda's new diesels.
#5236 of 5290
Re: Too many CA legislators still driving SUV HOGS [larsb] by stevedebi
Sep 28, 2006 (9:46 am)

Replying to: larsb (Sep 26, 2006 1:32 pm)

"Surprised, Why? Diesel is "fossil fuel NON GRATA" in California, dontcha know?
  
As far as 'armor plated SUVs' go, well, a Highlander Hybrid can be armourized. So that's not a good argument for allowing government waste.
 
And even, let's say, if certain officials, by the nature of security, are REQUIRED to drive SUVs - there are WAYS to get them up to 25 and 35 MPG. One group of scientists took a Ford Exploder up to almost 40 MPG with about $3400 in mods."
 
I would like to see a URL to that story. The only case I know of is a bunch of university students who achieved good MPG - at a cost of 100K in specialized modifications.
 
It is not a matter of requiring an SUV, it is a matter of load carrying capacity. Armor plating and bulletproof glass are heavy. A HH bearing that extra weight and the passenger weight would get pretty bad MPG, and might not perform well enough in emergency avoidance situations (the vehicle has to accelerate and maneuver around threats).
 
In my younger days I had a tour of duty in Honduras. We had to drive up a mountain several times a week. The government origninally provided Chevy Suburbans with 6 cyl engines and factory armor plating. The vehicles could not get up the mountain. A V8 engine would have worked; this is the same principle.
 
A security chief starts with the requirements, and then finds the vehicles that fit the requirement.
 
But we needen't worry, the Excursion was phased out last October. So the Governator will be riding in something else next time...
#5237 of 5290
Re: a sad story [texases] by tpe
Sep 28, 2006 (9:53 am)

Replying to: texases (Sep 28, 2006 9:34 am)

You're absolutely correct. The way to make the biggest impact on oil consumption is to focus on the least fuel efficient vehicles, not the most efficient. Unfortunately you now run into the problem of apathy. People buying full size SUVs obviously don't place a high priority on mpg. Its an easier sell to get these people to pay for more power and ammenities than higher mpg.
#5238 of 5290
Re: a sad story [tpe] by terry92270
Sep 28, 2006 (12:23 pm)

Replying to: tpe (Sep 28, 2006 9:53 am)

So, you are saying I should sell my Esclade
#5239 of 5290
Re: a sad story [tpe] by gagrice
Sep 28, 2006 (2:07 pm)

Replying to: tpe (Sep 28, 2006 9:53 am)

People buying full size SUVs obviously don't place a high priority on mpg
 
That is not true. There are no choices for efficient full size SUVs. The last diesel Suburban was in about 1999. The diesel Excursion is now history. If you are not interested in a half size SUV you are stuck with the current offering of gas guzzlers. I am hoping that DCX get the Grand Cherokee and MB diesels over here soon.
#5240 of 5290
Re: a sad story [gagrice] by tpe
Sep 28, 2006 (4:03 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Sep 28, 2006 2:07 pm)

I am actually somewhat amazed by the fuel efficiency full sized SUVs are capable of achieving. I drove a Ford Pinto in college in the late 70's. This was definitely considered a compact, fuel efficient vehicle. I rarely got 20 mpg and that was only when I drove exclusively highway miles. I know people with Suburbans and they claim to get in 15-17 mpg range. Not much difference for a vehicle that is close to 3x the size with 3x the power. If people think that the auto manufacturers can build a Suburban that gets over 30 mpg with no sacrifices in power or size then I'd like to see it.
#5241 of 5290
Re: a sad story [tpe] by gagrice
Sep 28, 2006 (8:23 pm)

Replying to: tpe (Sep 28, 2006 4:03 pm)

Suburban that gets over 30 mpg
 
I think it is possible. Will it be as fast as one with a big gas V8? No If my Mercedes Sprinter conversion van can get 25 MPG weighing 8k lbs. I think that 5 cylinder diesel with the 5 speed Tiptronic could get 30 in a Suburban size vehicle. It would cruise all day at 80 MPH with that engine transmission combo. They are building one in Europe with a plug-in hybrid for city delivery. FedEx and UPS are buying them by the thousands. Until we get great batteries diesel is the best solution for economy in all but the smallest vehicles.
#5242 of 5290
Re: a sad story [gagrice] by tpe
Sep 29, 2006 (3:26 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Sep 28, 2006 8:23 pm)

I agree that with a diesel you would gain significant mileage, maybe 30%. A better transmission, probably another 1 mpg. I'm still doubtful you'd see 30 mpg, maybe highway miles. I also don't think there is all that big a corellation between engine power and mpg anymore. Especially for larger vehicles where reducing power might actually hurt mpg. I look at cars like the Camry where there is neglible difference in mpg between the 4 cyl and 6 cyl model. I think a few years back the Corvette was rated at as high a mileage as the Miata. In the last 10 years cars have gotten about 50% more powerful, which has resulted in people asking the question, "rather than make cars 50% more powerful why not make them 50% more fuel efficient"? It doesn't work that way.
#5243 of 5290
Good looking hybrid from Citroen by gagrice
Sep 29, 2006 (7:23 am)
Citroen in designing the car, was simply trying to illustrate that a more environmentally friendly sports car can be made, said Lafaury, who was the project leader.
"Currently, when you buy a sports car, you know it's an ecological problem," he said. He wasn't gushing in his view toward the market leader in hybrids, the Prius from Toyota
 "It's in production, so I have to respect that," Lafaury said. "But a diesel engine has lower emissions."
 
Citroen hybrid
 
Did I mention 0-60 in 6.2 seconds?
#5244 of 5290
Re: Good looking hybrid from Citroen [gagrice] by larsb
Sep 29, 2006 (8:39 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Sep 29, 2006 7:23 am)

gary says "But a diesel engine has lower emissions."
 
Lower than WHAT? That's a very vague statement.
 
Diesels emissions are:
 
Not lower than PZEV gasser hybrids.
Usually not lower than a SULEV gasser.
 
What was his point?

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