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Toyota Tundra, Truck
#550 of 838 Re: 2008 SR5 2WD Tundra 5.7 DC Std. Bed [ocautoseeker]
Apr 28, 2008 (3:21 pm)
I just got off the phone with a Toyota dealer and I was told that the invoice on a Tundra limited, DBL cab, 4X4, std bed, 5.7LV8 is $35,947 on top of the invoice price is TDA=$700, $10 in gas, $771 holdback! for a total of $37,428 this is invoice? I asked if these charges were "packed" into the invoice and he said everyone except Toyota "packs them in", is this true? I guess shipping is "packed" into the invoice? This is the invoice price with no options. I thought the holdback was refunded to the dealer so why am I going to pay it? Are these charges normal? Thanks for the time, I would like to buy the truck until this came up. These information is from Phoenix AZ.
#551 of 838 Re: 2008 SR5 2WD Tundra 5.7 DC Std. Bed [mrvman]
Apr 29, 2008 (12:43 am)
All those items are indeed part of the factory invoice. Edmund's and KBB include all those items in their invoice prices too (they're just not itemized), minus the TDA since it varies by region.
Everybody pays freight 'aka' destination.
Yes, the holdback (2% of base msrp) does get refunded to the dealer at a later date, as long as the original dealer sells the vehicle and does not trade for it with another dealer. Wholesale financial reserve (wfr) equates to 1/2 of the holdback (1% of base msrp). This is used to cover interest on current inventory. TDA is not refunded, nor is it a profit item. It's unfortunate that these items (fees) are itemized as it leads the consumer to believe he/she is being taken advantage of.
I just had this discussion with another member very recently. The bottom line is that they (the dealer) are simply quoting you invoice on what they were billed from the factory. Those are not dealer added fees - they're costs passed from the factory to the dealer, which in-turn, are passed onto you. This is typical of many retail products; costs such as advertisng and marketing are built in, the consumer just typically doesn't see an invoice, unlike in the car biz where the 411 is at your fingertips.
In essence, it really doesn't matter what the dealer paid for his product, what matters is what the market thinks is a fair price. The collective pricing from educated buyers will get you a great price. Check your weekly auto ads or skim the net to see what type of pricing is available in your area.
Like I've said many times before though, Invoice is strictly used as a guideline to compare deals between dealers. Invoice is NOT cost - there is much more involved to a dealer's cost then simply what a consumer sees on his computer screen.
With that said though, Invoice is a good starting point, but ultimately, supply and demand, time of the month, sales goals, etc. will all be the determining factor(s) at which price a dealer decides to sell his vehicle. You as a consumer have the right to offer any price you want, but the dealer also reserves the right to say no... or yes.
The last few posts describe the fees in great detail.
My advice: offer $1000 or maybe even $1500 below invoice and tell him you're ready to buy now. By offering that price, if you want to look at it from a "fees" perspective, you're basically buying the vehicle at invoice and subtracting out the holdback and wfr. There's two days left in this month, so if he won't do it now, he certainly won't do it the first 3.5 weeks of May. The only thing that may change in May are the rebates. They certainly won't go lower, but it's always a gamble to see if they'll go higher. Won't know 'til May 2.
#552 of 838 Re: 2008 SR5 2WD Tundra 5.7 DC Std. Bed [ocautoseeker]
Apr 29, 2008 (6:49 am)
Thanks for the reply, The dealer is adding the holdback and TDA on top of the Invoice. The dealer invoice price is right on with Edmund's, than they added the holdback and TDA. I thought you wrote that they were part of the invoice? You are right, it is about "out the door" that counts. If the holdback and TDA are part of the invoice than Edmunds might want to consider raising thier invoice pricing. I am going to offer $1,500 under invoice, but with or with out the Holdback and TDA? On just the Edmunds invoice? They are adding $1,481 on top of Edmunds invoice. Sorry if I repeat myself but this is serious money for a truck and I have not seen "holdback and TDA" put on top of the invoice before. I am going to offer as soon as have your information. Thanks.
#553 of 838 Re: 2008 SR5 2WD Tundra 5.7 DC Std. Bed [mrvman]
Apr 29, 2008 (9:54 pm)
I think you misunderstood what I said - Most manufacturer's have a holback of some percentage (usually 1-3%). Toyota's is broken down into 2 catergories: holdback and wholesale financial reserve. These 2 items account for 3% of the base msrp. On a hard-copy invoice from the manufacturer, these fees are built into the total invoice along with all the options but are not itemized, but if you sat across from the fleet manager in a dealership, his computerized invoice known as a vehicle inquiry report breaks up the fees - so, yes, in essence, the manufacturer charged the dealer a higher price upfront for the vehicle and therefore the dealer likes to treat it as an expense, rather than a profit item.
If you build a truck via this site (Edmunds) exactly per your specs, your total invoice after all options will essentially match the dealer's minus the TDA. Again, there's a regional variance in cost on that item. Regardless, the total invoice price you see on Edmunds INCLUDES the dealer's holdback and wfr. It's just not itemized, but trust me, it's built in.
If you say the TDA is $700, then the invoice you see on Edmunds (given you built an identical vehicle) should be $700 less than the dealer's. Holdback, wfr, destination, and tda are ALL built into the invoice, but the only one edmunds doesn't account for is the tda.
I realize I repeated this several times, but I want you to understand that they are not charging you those fees above and beyond the invoice after the fact - they're already included. When I say offer $1000 below invoice, I mean $1000 below the dealer's factory invoice (which includes the tda).
Here's what the bottom portion of the dealer's computerized invoice will look like. For illustrative purposes, I picked a random Tundra, but you can see that it's total invoice is $34871. Offering $1000 below invoice would mean a selling price of $33871 on a vehicle that retails for $38502. That would be a discount of $4631, then if there is a $3000 rebate, your "net" savings would be $7631. That's a damn good deal on a Tundra!
Total Accessories ...........................: $ 2107.00 $ 1468.50
Destination Charge ..........................: $ 685.00 $ 685.00
TDA .........................................: $ 391.00
Gasoline ....................................: $ 10.00
Dealer Holdback .............................: $ 714.00
Whsl. Financial Reserve .....................: $ 357.00
Total .......................................: Invoice:$ 34871.50 MSRP: $ 38502.00
#554 of 838 Re: 2008 SR5 2WD Tundra 5.7 DC Std. Bed [ocautoseeker]
May 06, 2008 (6:29 pm)
Great information. Still a bit confusing though. It all clicked when I got the vehicle inventory sheet you spoke of and finally understood what you said about them carrying these as "expenses". For me the confusion is based on the phrase "included" Does that mean it has already been netted out or not. Bottom line is that the Edmunds invoice prices includes expenses for holdback and WFR as you stated.
Anyway my proposed vehicle is a loaded (package G) CM Limited 5.7 4x4 MSRP of $48,371, invoice of $43,793 which includes expense items for TDA (500) and the holdbacks (841 plus 420). A few dealers I spoke to easily met the 43,793 number but balk once I offer into the holdback. How far can I go? I'd like to pay 42,532. I can be patient but I'd like some reassurance.
All this is before the 0% plus 1k.
Interesting to see that the holdbacks on the toyota invoice are calculated only on the vehicle base for that model and not on the total MSRP. For instance the vehicle mentioned above 2% holdback of 821 is based on the model base MSRP of 42,070 not on the specific vehicle MSRP of 47,686 (no destination.)
#555 of 838 Tundra May Rebates
May 06, 2008 (6:53 pm)
I ordered a Tundra back in December that I believe will be delivered within the next week or so. Edmunds does not yet indicate a factory to buyer rebate for May. In April, it was $3,000. Does anyone have any information regarding a May rebate? Have sales taken off so much that Toyota has dropped the invoice? Do they wait a while each month to announce the rebates? If a rebate will come out later in the month or next month, I may be forced to leave my truck on the lot until it is announced. Help.
#556 of 838 Re: 2008 SR5 2WD Tundra 5.7 DC Std. Bed [closenough]
May 07, 2008 (12:30 pm)
Dealer's are alway gonna' get snippy when you hint at the idea of dipping into their holdback. However, for reassurance, the Edmund's invoice you negotiated is a great price.
Remember, the salesman (in most cases) doesn't know the "dead cost" of any vehicle, all he knows is the difference between MSRP and Invoice. Plus, most do not get paid on holdback even though it represents a profit, so by offering them invoice - minus holdback, wfr and tda, they look at the deal as a "no profit" deal - and it very well may be. The consumer will never know.
If you're set on that price of $42,532, tell them that you're ready to buy and that is your offer. Be polite, but firm. If they continue to balk, you know that they are unwilling to sell you the vehicle at that price - unfortunately that's their right. If this were to be the case, offer to meet them half way between your offer and the edmund's invoice they were willing to sell for.
#557 of 838 Re: Tundra May Rebates [katzat]
May 07, 2008 (12:32 pm)
The site can be a bit slow on updating rebates/incentives.
Go to buyatoyota.com for recent rebates/incentives based on your zip code.
In SoCal, the rebate just went to $4000 or 0% for 60 months.
#558 of 838 Just bought on '07 Limited Double Cab
May 08, 2008 (5:42 am)
This past Saturday I purchased on '07 Limited Double Cab 4x2, TRD package in Radiant Red (North Florida). It was a demo with 2000 miles. I got the price down about $3500 from invoice. I don't think that is terribly good, but I was able to get $3000 rebate PLUS 0% for 60mos which I could not pass up.
I used the equity in my Jeep Wranlger and walked away with no money out of pocket. I probably could have worked a better deal, but in the end I am satisfied with my purchase.
Looking forward to a long life for my new truck.
#559 of 838 Re: Tundra May Rebates [ocautoseeker]
May 08, 2008 (7:07 am)
Thanks for the intel. Turns out that yesterday, the truck arrived. It was ordered in late December and arrived on May 7. Just over 5 months, but I expected it as I had ordered a Sequoia back in 2004 and it took about 5 months to arrive that time as well.
Turns out that I did find, through the dealer's site, that the incentives for the truck in my area are $3,000 OR $1,000 and 0% for 60 mo. The wife and I have committed to never finance a vehicle, but I considered that on roughly $44,000 (including the absorbative IL sales tax and vehicle licensing charges), I could not afford not to use their money for this purchase. Edmunds Rebate or Low Finance calculator/decision assistor, was a real help with this ( http://www.edmunds.com/apps/calc/CalculatorController ) . I used my mortgage rate (because I have a mortgage) less the benefit of tax deductability as the base rate on my money if I financed the deal.
Turns out that the $2,000 difference in the rebate makes buying the truck with cash only viable if my cost of financing is less than 2% or the amount financed is less than $20,000. All of this surprised me, as in the past, I have always found that the incentive offers made the decision more difficult -- the offers were closer to a wash or actually incentised the buyer to pay cash if he could. The current rebate/financing offers on the Tundra don't appear to have been calculated based on the typical cost of the truck.
Nevertheless, we bought the truck for $800 over invoice. I had another offer from a dealership that we had dealt with in the past for straight invoice, but the girl that was assigned to assist me with the order (take the order) could never seem to get it correct. The guy that I finally dealt with took the order, took a credit card over the phone for the $200 to secure the deal, and I never spoke to him again until the truck was delivered. We were in the dealersip for an hour signing the paperwork (with two 7 year olds) and home in time for bed.
I documented this process in 2004 when I bought the Sequoia, but when I read on these forums about the dickering and trouble with the dealerships when dealing with salesmen on the sales floor, it makes me cringe. I cannot recommend enough the value of the Edmunds article "Confessions of a Car Salesman" ( http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html ). The point is that there are dealerships that recognize that there are folks out there that buy vehicles based on other than emotional reasons (Specificaitons, comfort, previous experience with reliability, etc.) and have setup a sales channel for them. It is usually called the fleet or internet sales channel. You send these guys an email (directly from Edmunds.com if you wish) and they give you a quote. It is usually their lowest price (invoice or some price referenced against invoice). You accept it, order the vehicle, put a couple hundred down on a credit card over the phone, and they call you when the vehicle arrives. You print out your Edmunds price report with all of the invoice numbers, understand the advertising fee that is part of the cost but not on the Edmunds report, and take it with you when you pick up the vehicle. When you look at the cost on the dealer's price sheet, you simply compare it to your Edmunds report and ask questions. My experience is that these guys explain or make adjustments per your agreement and you are out of the dealership with the car you ordered in record time with absolutely no crap -- your agreement was based on the invoice after all, no discussion regarding MSRP or dealer installed options or adders.
I am happy after last night's experience. For those of you in the Chicagoland area, the dealership I dealt with was David Bruce Toyota in Bourbonais. Continental Toyota in Countryside also has a fleet/internet sales channel that works well, but I have found that unless you initiate the transaction through the internet/fleet channel, you wind up having to deal with a sales floor salesman. The deal gets complicated with the typical crap (you may have to insult the salesman by asking to speak to the internet/fleet sales manager).
Thanks again Edmunds.