Edmunds.com | Inside Line | Auto Observer Your Account | Help | Directory
You are here:
![[F]](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/site.gif){kind=small}
Forums
Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Toyota Tundra Prices Paid and Buying Experience
754 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 9:33 AM
You are in the Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum. Your Hosts are car_man & kyfdx
|
|
|---|---|
|
Replying to: justbrowse (Apr 07, 2008 3:08 pm) If you're in the southeast region, you have to deal with SET (Southeast Toyota) and they do charge an additional Admin fee of ~ $750 on every vehicle as they deal with a different distibutor. I'm sorry if you live in the SET region as they truly do beat to a different drum down there. The holdback is 2% of the base msrp and Toyota charges a flooring fee called "wholesale financial reserve" which is 1% of the base msrp. These can be negotiated, but they are not "hidden fees" as you mentioned. Salesman do NOT get paid on these charges as they are not comissioned items. Some Toyota vehicles charge $10 for fuel, who's gonna' bark over that $10, especially when you get a full tank which would cost you about $90 if you did it yourself at current fuel prices. Again, these fees are all included on the invoices you put together online, they are just not itemized as detailed as a true factory invoice. Now, because the dealer probably showed you his "vehicle inquiry report", which is the computerized version of the "hard copy" invoice, it itemizes all the "fees." If you go back and build your vehicle via edmunds or kbb... the holdback, wfr, and gasoline ARE included in the invoice price. Only item that will be missing is the TDA 'cause it varies by region. And, if you are in SET, you have to add the ~$750 admin fee to your build order. So, when you offered invoice, it appears he gave you invoice (which is what you asked). I'm certainly not taking the dealer's side as I was not there, but the fees you described ARE part of the invoice. Remember, invoice is not cost, but rather an arbitrary number that consumers are able to utilize to see what the market is willing to pay in relation. No salesman, of even a manager for that matter know the true dead cost of a vehicle - the owner and/or the GM (maybe) are the only ones at the dealership that would know that number. In some cases invoice is a deal, in some case, it's not gonna' happen, but either way, when it's itemized on the FACTORY INVOICE, it's a charge from Toyota or SET, and all though you may think it's BS, they are NOT trying to pull a fast one on you. The fee you should be worried about is the documentation and processing fee. Here in SoCal, dealers are capped at $55, which is very reasoanble, but in some states, I've seen it as high as $700! Now that's a bogus fee. In this day and age, you have to negotiate with kindness (but be firm), otherwise they WILL let you walk and you'll never get a vehicle as they know you'll burn 'em on the survey (CSI), which will take even more money out of their pocket. Please don't take the tone of this e-mail personally, it was simply to edcuate you (and others) how the car biz works (at least from Toyota's standpoint) and how to get a deal w/o thinking the dealer is trying to screw you. Does it happen? You bet - all the time, but I'm simply pointing out that you asked for something (invoice), and he gave it too you. Because you did not understand how the dealership worked, going to the BBB etc. was way over the top. If you wanted to go $1000 back of invoice on a Tundra, he probably would have done it (based on current demand), but $1000 below invoice is $1000 below the numbers he has inked on his factory invoice, not what you "think" his cost is. 'Nuff said... good luck with the next dealer. |
|
|
|
|
Here's a computerized version of a Toyota factory invoice. At the bottom, you will see all the itemized "fees." If you live in the SET region, an admin fee of ~$750 would be added or in lieu of the TDA. But, for educational purposes, if you were to build this vehicle to it's exact specs via this site, the invoice should match everything except the TDA. Reitterating that the dest., holdback, wfr, and gasoline are already built into the invoice. 18186 VEHICLE INQUIRY REPORT DATE: 04/07/08 DCV920 TIME: 09:51 Model Number: 8352A SERIAL # :8X053419 Check Code: 0 Model Description: DCAB LTD 5.7L V8 Category ..........: G Year ............: 2008 Current Dealer ....: 110-04136 Interior Color ..: LD13 LD13 Wholesale Dealer ..: 04136 Exterior Color ..: 0040 WHITE Previous Dealer ...: 00110 Body ............: DBL CAB 5.7L LTD Invoice Date ......: 02/08/08 Number of Cyl ...: 8 Ship Date .........: 02/07/08 Allocation Number: 012 Retail Date .......: Engine Number ...: 5206225 Date of First Use .: Vessel Number ...: 705 TRAC ..............: NO Vessel Name .....: TMMTX SANANTONIO Damage ............: NO DAMAGE PDI ...............: YES Fleet .............: NON-FLEET Port PDS Complete .: NO VIN .............: 5TFBV58148XXXXXXX Ignition Key.....: N/A Factory Installed Accessories: FE AL Port Installed Accessories ..: C4 7J Retail Dealer Vehicle Base Model ....................: $ 38770.00 $ 33923.00 Total Accessories .....................: $ 1048.00 $ 813.50 MECHANICAL & PERFORMANCE GVWR = 7100 lbs. Payload = 1560 lbs. Tow Capacity = 10,300 lbs. 381HP/401 Lb-Ft 5.7L DOHC 32V iForce V8 w/Dual Independent VVT-I and ACIS 6-Spd Auto w/Seq Shift and Tow/Haul Mode Engine Immobilizer, Cruise Control 4WDemand 4x4 System w/Electronically Controlled 2 Speed Transfer Case Tow Equip: Hitch Receiver, Supp A/T Cooler, 4.30 Rear Diff w/10.5" Ring Gear 150A Alternator, A/T Temp Gauge, 7 Pin Conn, Trailer Brake Controller Prewire Automatic Limited Slip Diff (Auto LSD) Front and Rear Sonar TripleTech Frame: Fully-boxed Fr Section Reinforced C Under Cab, Open C Under Bed Coil Over Shock Double A-Arm Front Susp Multi-Leaf Trapezoidal Rear Suspension 18" Alloy Wheels w/P275/65R18 Tires EXTERIOR 6.5'' Double-Walled Bed w/Tailgate Assist Color-keyed Fr/Chrome Rr Bumper Chrome Grille/Door Handles/Outer Mirror Sliding Rr Window w/Privacy Glass Fog Lamps INTERIOR Leather Trim Pwr Heated Front Buckets Automatic Dual Zone Climate Control JBL AM/FM 6-CD, 10 Spkrs, Aux Audio Jack w/Steering Wheel Audio Cntrls, Bluetooth Power Windows/Door Locks/Mirrors Remote Keyless Entry & Anti-Theft System SAFETY STAR Safety: Pwr Assist 4 Wheel Disc ABS w/Electronic Brakeforce Distrib (EBD), Brake Assist, Vehicle Stability Control with Active Traction Control (VSC+ATRAC) Dr & Fr Pass Advanced Airbags/Seat Side Airbags/3 pt Seatbelts w/Pretensioners & Force Limiters Roll-Sensing Curtain Airbags (RSCA) Tire Pressure Monitoring System Retail Dealer Total Vehicle Base Model ..........................:$ 38770.00 $ 33923.00 $ 38770.00 50 State Emissions ......................... 20" Alloy Wheels w/P275/55R20 Tires ........ 920.00 736.00 Carpet Floor Mats - 4 piece ................ 115.00 69.00 Front License Plate Bracket ................ 13.00 8.50 --------- --------- --------- Total Accessories ...........................: $ 1048.00 $ 813.50 $ 1048.00 Destination Charge ..........................: $ 685.00 $ 685.00 TDA .........................................: $ 400.00 Gasoline ....................................: $ 10.00 Dealer Holdback .............................: $ 775.00 Whsl. Financial Reserve .....................: $ 387.00 --------- --------- Total .......................................Invoice: $ 36993.50 / MSRP: $ 40503.00
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: justbrowse (Apr 07, 2008 3:33 pm) In most cases... you get one or the other - the rebate or low apr, which in this case, you said you were opting for the low apr, so the rebate wouldn't have even applied too you. |
|
|
|
|
Replying to: ocautoseeker (Apr 07, 2008 11:24 pm) |
|
|
|
Assuming that you qualify, Toyota's -0-% financing is more a marketing ploy than reality. What I find in my research is that "there are no free lunches", and that's goes for -0-% or low interest rates on auto financing. The additional fees tacked on at closing can be construed as "disguised prepaid interest" in the form of mandatory fees, cicumventing the "truth and lending" requirements set forth by FTC. "Substance over form" in dealing with "structured finance transactions." Assuming you are correct in your assessment of mandatory fees, it is not properly disclosed to the average "joe".
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: justbrowse (Apr 08, 2008 2:51 pm) You stated that you bought a few other vehicles at invoice, and since most manufacturers have holdback and a regional ad fee, you paid these and just didn't know it. Most hard copy invoices from the manufacturer don't itemize the fees - they're simply built into the invoice, just like you see here on Edmunds. The fees you saw on the vehicle inquiry report were itemized, but they tally up to the total invoice price the dealer was billed. Toyota can charge whatever they want for their products, and they did just that, and it's not a crime for a franchised dealer to pass on their costs to you - the consumer. This is where properly preparing yourself to make a purchase comes into play. As for financing, when Toyota offers 0% or whatever special rate, in most cases, if a consumer is Tier 1 and above ( 700 FICO or higher) and they opt for that financing, they get it - nothing shady about it. What research have you done that proves otherwise? A dealer can't mark-up special financing, in fact, they may have to pay into it to help subsidize the low rate since it's usually well below current rates. In most cases, when a rebate is available in lieu of the special financing, and a customer opts for the financing, the money that would be used towards the rebate is typically shifted to subsidize the low rate. The only thing that might make a customer balk is a possible pre-payment penalty. TFS has no pre-payment penalty after 3 months, but what's shady about that? That's up to the lender, not the dealer. In regards to the products/services a finance manager tries to sell you, it's not that hard to just say "no thank you" and move on. You can't take it personally if they mope (and who really cares anyway), and if they make you feel guilty, in essence, they've done their job.
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: ocautoseeker (Apr 08, 2008 10:33 pm) In the world of accounting for auto dealerships, costs paid and incurred by the retailer for such costs as marketing (advertising), bank financing (interest expense), salaries, rent, utilities are considered selling and overhead costs. In the real world, these costs paid or incurred by the retailer are not passed on to the consumer. The retailer, Walmart, does not charge the consumer for an additional mark up or "mandatory fees" in addition to the sale price of an item listed in sales ad, except for local sales tax (a true mandatory fee) or Oregon doesn't charge sales tax. The MSRP is a suggested retail price. It is not mandated by the manufactured; it is only suggested. The so called "dealer's invoice" is just a reference to a standard cost of a finished item; it is definitely not used in financial or tax accounting that is reported to the SEC or IRS or EU. In purchasing a car, the consumer negoitates A "price" that his willing to pay. He doesn't want to be nickled and dime; average "Joe" just wants "one -final -negotiated -price. " In the world of negoitations, one will often hear, "tax, license, complete" for 1-price. NOT,"or by the way I have to add marketing, interest, delivery to your final negotiated price. According to all the auto brochures, "dealerships MAY include an advertising fee on top of the MSRP." Who pays MSRP? the dealer MAY ,not must, not will ... Getting back to your comments. When a consumer pays in addition to his final negoiated price; he expects Tax, License and DMV fees. Not what the dealership demands that he pays (mandatory fees) in addition to. In the regulated world of the Federal Trade Commission for consumers, the fair market value of a product is determine between a willing buyer and a willing seller, NOT in addition to! That was my point. In my previous comments, I should have preface that I was coming from the world of accounting for tax and SEC. Your points are well addressed in your comments. I am coming from a consumer and tax accountant. Have a great day!
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: justbrowse (Apr 09, 2008 8:03 pm) Once again... Invoice is not cost, and I never said it was. For example, let's say you agree on a price $500 over dealer invoice for a Tundra, hopefully by now you realize that you didn't pay $500 profit. If you get a deal at $500 over (invoice less holdback and wfr), you still didn't pay a $500 profit. A dealer's profit margin involves a lot more than just what is paid for the vehicle and quite frankly, it's really not the customer's business. The sales staff isn't even aware of what the true dead cost is, nor should they. The customer should not be in the business of concerning him/herself with the financials of the dealership. Look, if the dealer started writing in a bunch of extraneous fees on your purchase order, then you'd have every right to question them, but on a true invoice from a manufacturer, those fees were paid, whether the customer wants to believe it or not. They are not "nickel & dime" fees. Holdback was paid upfront by the dealer (as part of the invoice), and yes, this money is refunded back to them, typically quarterly, as is the wfr, but they typically go right back into overhead expenses. The TDA was paid to the regional distributor and is never refunded (at least for Toyota). There is no doubt that the automotive industry has created a life-long negative stigma. It sucks, but it's the nature of the business. As a consumer myself, I may have a leg up as I worked in the business and currently still consult. However, as an independent consultant, I have zero allegiance to any dealer or the slimy tricks they may pull. This is why I post on this board - to help people, not to flash around my knowledge. Like I said, a consumer can offer anything he wants, but you let your emotions get the best of you because you simply had no clue that those fees were part of the invoice. And in regards to the advertisnig fee, if you think that products you buy at a retail store don't have that cost built in to their product, you're nuts. Besides, buying a truck is not the same as buying a TV from Walmart - nobody at Walmart has the authority to field a price offer from a customer. If a TV is on sale for $799, you don't walk in and say you'll give them $500 for it. You'd get laughed out of the store. Needless to say, shopping for a car is not to be compared with shopping for "other" retail items. It's a completely different way of buying. You are correct about the invoice being an arbitrary number though. It simply allows you to compare dealer A to dealer B. If you know what people are paying for this vehicle and you got a dealer to give it too you, I still don't see what all the fuss is about. If you don't want to pay the the holdback, financial reserve, and the ad fee - fine, offer them $2k below invoice. If they say yes, you've got an exceptional deal, if they say no - well, then you'll know that they're not as desperate as everything thinks. Despite what people are saying about high fuel prices, demand still varies in the truck market. For example, a Crew Maxx 5.7L is not nearly as distressed as a 4.7L Double Cab. Therefore, $1000 below invoice on the DC could probably be had all day long, whereas with a CM, they may not take anything less than invoice. BTW... I notice you live in Salinas, I have a fantastic Fleet contact at one of the Toyota dealerships in the bay area. If you give me the specs and color of what type of truck you're looking for, I'd be happy to set you up, or get you a quote at the very least. And no, I do not work for him or recieve a referral fee. He's just an honest, professional straight shooter who will tell you what he can and can't do. Depsite what you might think, I want you to get a truck, and I want you to get a great deal. But understand, no matter what Toyota dealership you go to, when you ask to see the invoice (on their computer), they will all have the same items the first dealer showed you. Why? Because they are costs billed from the manufacturer - simple as that. You just happened to see them in itemized form. Had they of shown you a hard copy, the price would have been exactly the same and you would have had no idea that they were included.
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: ocautoseeker (Apr 09, 2008 11:21 pm) The average consumer does not have direct access to the Dealership's books and records. The financial or cost accountants, internal and outside auditors have this knowledge. After all , we're paid to follow the cash. From my perspective as a consumer and accountant, I refuse to participate in the "marketing or sales tactics" used in the "closing game of the sale." The auto retail industry and the timeshare industry use the same selling and marketing tactics to "close the sale." They're job is to SELL; they have to eat. I, as a consumer, chose to participate or walk to another dealer. In my case, I am going to purchase the truck from Toyota USA. Knowledge is key to the consumer, especially when you examine numbers for a living and report these numbers to the SEC, IRS, State Franchise Tax Board, and the shareholder or dealership owners. My main point in all our discussions is the "marketing and sales game" used at the time of closing A "sale". The auto retail industry deserves the stigma as being "unethical" in using these marketing/closing tactics: -0-% or low interest financing, free this or free that-TO get you into the door. Timeshare selling 101. Your observations as a consultant to the industry are well taken. I am just coming from debits and credits and legal.
|
|
You are here:
Forums
Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Toyota Tundra Prices Paid and Buying Experience
New? Join Now!
Forum Tools
Search Forums
Browse by Vehicle
2010 Toyota Tundra
Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
Today's Chats
