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You are in the Prices Paid - Buying & Leasing Experiences
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Toyota Tundra, Truck
#520 of 838 Backed In fees(hidden fees) at Closing
Apr 07, 2008 (3:25 pm)
Dealerships have found a new way to gouged the consumer. Instead, of adding markups on the car sticker price, they are advertising "dealer invoice" and marking the fees at closing when you are about to sign papers. It is the "nickle and dime" hidden line item pricing at closing: doc fees, admin fees, marketing fees, bank flooring interest, and gas. Before you sign, look at all the line items; it wil turn out to be $2000 on top of dealer invoice. The dealerships get a 3% holdback from the factory or $1200 on a $40k Tundra CrewMax. I have purchased 5 cars at so called "dealer invoice" on the internet, but never encountered this scenario until over the weekend. Stay away from Toyota Salinas!
#521 of 838 Computation of $3000 rebate after tax and license
Apr 07, 2008 (3:33 pm)
The advertised "rebates" by Toyota are computed after the dealership computes the total sales price/tax/DMV fees. The so called $3000 rebates off the 08 Tundras or $5000 off the 07 Tundras are reflected after the final sale. What a joke! More profit to the Toyota dealerships. This also applies to "trade ins". The salesman are trained to talk about retail and fabulous "rebates"; just make sure we're looking at dealer's invoice; the dealerships get paid on unit sales, plus the dealerships get a 3% holdback as profit on the car. There are mo ethics in the car retail industry!
#522 of 838 Re: -0-% finance with hidden fees [justbrowse]
Apr 07, 2008 (11:07 pm)
Let me see if I can break this down for you and simplify/clarify any confusion. It appears that the fees they showed you ARE legit and part of the factory invoice. The marketing fee 'aka' TDA is a regional adverstising fee that the dealership pays the distributor and they are NOT refunded or "kick-backed" any of that money. It can vary by manufacturer, but I can tell you that it is NOT a profit item for Toyota.
If you're in the southeast region, you have to deal with SET (Southeast Toyota) and they do charge an additional Admin fee of ~ $750 on every vehicle as they deal with a different distibutor. I'm sorry if you live in the SET region as they truly do beat to a different drum down there.
The holdback is 2% of the base msrp and Toyota charges a flooring fee called "wholesale financial reserve" which is 1% of the base msrp. These can be negotiated, but they are not "hidden fees" as you mentioned. Salesman do NOT get paid on these charges as they are not comissioned items. Some Toyota vehicles charge $10 for fuel, who's gonna' bark over that $10, especially when you get a full tank which would cost you about $90 if you did it yourself at current fuel prices. Again, these fees are all included on the invoices you put together online, they are just not itemized as detailed as a true factory invoice.
Now, because the dealer probably showed you his "vehicle inquiry report", which is the computerized version of the "hard copy" invoice, it itemizes all the "fees." If you go back and build your vehicle via edmunds or kbb... the holdback, wfr, and gasoline ARE included in the invoice price. Only item that will be missing is the TDA 'cause it varies by region. And, if you are in SET, you have to add the ~$750 admin fee to your build order.
So, when you offered invoice, it appears he gave you invoice (which is what you asked). I'm certainly not taking the dealer's side as I was not there, but the fees you described ARE part of the invoice. Remember, invoice is not cost, but rather an arbitrary number that consumers are able to utilize to see what the market is willing to pay in relation. No salesman, of even a manager for that matter know the true dead cost of a vehicle - the owner and/or the GM (maybe) are the only ones at the dealership that would know that number.
In some cases invoice is a deal, in some case, it's not gonna' happen, but either way, when it's itemized on the FACTORY INVOICE, it's a charge from Toyota or SET, and all though you may think it's BS, they are NOT trying to pull a fast one on you.
The fee you should be worried about is the documentation and processing fee. Here in SoCal, dealers are capped at $55, which is very reasoanble, but in some states, I've seen it as high as $700! Now that's a bogus fee.
In this day and age, you have to negotiate with kindness (but be firm), otherwise they WILL let you walk and you'll never get a vehicle as they know you'll burn 'em on the survey (CSI), which will take even more money out of their pocket.
Please don't take the tone of this e-mail personally, it was simply to edcuate you (and others) how the car biz works (at least from Toyota's standpoint) and how to get a deal w/o thinking the dealer is trying to screw you. Does it happen? You bet - all the time, but I'm simply pointing out that you asked for something (invoice), and he gave it too you. Because you did not understand how the dealership worked, going to the BBB etc. was way over the top. If you wanted to go $1000 back of invoice on a Tundra, he probably would have done it (based on current demand), but $1000 below invoice is $1000 below the numbers he has inked on his factory invoice, not what you "think" his cost is.
'Nuff said... good luck with the next dealer.
Apr 07, 2008 (11:24 pm)
Here's a computerized version of a Toyota factory invoice. At the bottom, you will see all the itemized "fees." If you live in the SET region, an admin fee of ~$750 would be added or in lieu of the TDA. But, for educational purposes, if you were to build this vehicle to it's exact specs via this site, the invoice should match everything except the TDA. Reitterating that the dest., holdback, wfr, and gasoline are already built into the invoice.
18186 VEHICLE INQUIRY REPORT DATE: 04/07/08
DCV920 TIME: 09:51
Model Number: 8352A SERIAL # :8X053419 Check Code: 0
Model Description: DCAB LTD 5.7L V8 Category ..........: G
Year ............: 2008 Current Dealer ....: 110-04136
Interior Color ..: LD13 LD13 Wholesale Dealer ..: 04136
Exterior Color ..: 0040 WHITE Previous Dealer ...: 00110
Body ............: DBL CAB 5.7L LTD Invoice Date ......: 02/08/08
Number of Cyl ...: 8 Ship Date .........: 02/07/08
Allocation Number: 012 Retail Date .......:
Engine Number ...: 5206225 Date of First Use .:
Vessel Number ...: 705 TRAC ..............: NO
Vessel Name .....: TMMTX SANANTONIO Damage ............: NO DAMAGE
PDI ...............: YES
Fleet .............: NON-FLEET
Port PDS Complete .: NO
VIN .............: 5TFBV58148XXXXXXX
Ignition Key.....: N/A
Factory Installed Accessories: FE AL
Port Installed Accessories ..: C4 7J
Vehicle Base Model ....................: $ 38770.00 $ 33923.00
Total Accessories .....................: $ 1048.00 $ 813.50
MECHANICAL & PERFORMANCE
GVWR = 7100 lbs. Payload = 1560 lbs.
Tow Capacity = 10,300 lbs.
381HP/401 Lb-Ft 5.7L DOHC 32V iForce V8
w/Dual Independent VVT-I and ACIS
6-Spd Auto w/Seq Shift and Tow/Haul Mode
Engine Immobilizer, Cruise Control
4WDemand 4x4 System w/Electronically
Controlled 2 Speed Transfer Case
Tow Equip: Hitch Receiver, Supp A/T
Cooler, 4.30 Rear Diff w/10.5" Ring Gear
150A Alternator, A/T Temp Gauge, 7 Pin
Conn, Trailer Brake Controller Prewire
Automatic Limited Slip Diff (Auto LSD)
Front and Rear Sonar
TripleTech Frame: Fully-boxed Fr Section
Reinforced C Under Cab, Open C Under Bed
Coil Over Shock Double A-Arm Front Susp
Multi-Leaf Trapezoidal Rear Suspension
18" Alloy Wheels w/P275/65R18 Tires
6.5'' Double-Walled Bed w/Tailgate Assist
Color-keyed Fr/Chrome Rr Bumper
Chrome Grille/Door Handles/Outer Mirror
Sliding Rr Window w/Privacy Glass
Leather Trim Pwr Heated Front Buckets
Automatic Dual Zone Climate Control
JBL AM/FM 6-CD, 10 Spkrs, Aux Audio Jack
w/Steering Wheel Audio Cntrls, Bluetooth
Power Windows/Door Locks/Mirrors
Remote Keyless Entry & Anti-Theft System
STAR Safety: Pwr Assist 4 Wheel Disc ABS
w/Electronic Brakeforce Distrib (EBD),
Brake Assist, Vehicle Stability Control
with Active Traction Control (VSC+ATRAC)
Dr & Fr Pass Advanced Airbags/Seat Side
Airbags/3 pt Seatbelts w/Pretensioners
& Force Limiters
Roll-Sensing Curtain Airbags (RSCA)
Tire Pressure Monitoring System
Retail Dealer Total
Vehicle Base Model ..........................:$ 38770.00 $ 33923.00 $ 38770.00
50 State Emissions .........................
20" Alloy Wheels w/P275/55R20 Tires ........ 920.00 736.00
Carpet Floor Mats - 4 piece ................ 115.00 69.00
Front License Plate Bracket ................ 13.00 8.50
--------- --------- ---------
Total Accessories ...........................: $ 1048.00 $ 813.50 $ 1048.00
Destination Charge ..........................: $ 685.00 $ 685.00
TDA .........................................: $ 400.00
Gasoline ....................................: $ 10.00
Dealer Holdback .............................: $ 775.00
Whsl. Financial Reserve .....................: $ 387.00
Total .......................................Invoice: $ 36993.50 / MSRP: $ 40503.00
#525 of 838 Re: Computation of $3000 rebate after tax and license [justbrowse]
Apr 08, 2008 (12:42 am)
In regards to the rebates, dealers do NOT get paid on these! They are not profit items. It is subsidized money that comes straight from the manufacturer and is used just like a cash down payment. Every customer gets them, unless they opt for and qualify for a low apr. They cannot "hide them" from you and cash them in. If you do not opt for low financing, you WILL get the rebate - no questions asked. If you want to blame somebody, blame your state DMV, as they are the ones who determine what and how much you're taxed - not the dealer.
In most cases... you get one or the other - the rebate or low apr, which in this case, you said you were opting for the low apr, so the rebate wouldn't have even applied too you.
#526 of 838 Re: Toyota Invoice [ocautoseeker]
Apr 08, 2008 (2:35 pm)
Thank you. Your information is very useful and informative. I stand corrected. The information you provide are not disclosed to the average consumer. The issue I have is the advertisment of low or -0-% financing, but at the back in or at the time of closing, all these above fees are automatically listed and not fully explained upfront. The auto retail game is to keep the customer in the dark and "closed the sale." It is very interesting that when a customer declines the extended warranties or rust proofing additional charges, it is like a slap in the face to the saleman, and next thing on the final signing docs, more additional charges are added. That's my experience with closing. Thanks for your input.
#527 of 838 Toyota's -0-% Financing
Apr 08, 2008 (2:51 pm)
Assuming that you qualify, Toyota's -0-% financing is more a marketing ploy than reality. What I find in my research is that "there are no free lunches", and that's goes for -0-% or low interest rates on auto financing. The additional fees tacked on at closing can be construed as "disguised prepaid interest" in the form of mandatory fees, cicumventing the "truth and lending" requirements set forth by FTC. "Substance over form" in dealing with "structured finance transactions." Assuming you are correct in your assessment of mandatory fees, it is not properly disclosed to the average "joe".
#528 of 838 Re: Toyota's -0-% Financing [justbrowse]
Apr 08, 2008 (10:33 pm)
I still don't understand what "fees" you are alluding too? If you're still referring to the TDA (ad fee), holdback and wfr... remember, they ARE part of the invoice and they are clearly mentioned on sites like Edmunds and KBB. Besides, these are billed items from the manufacturer and not some measly fee the dealer tacked on to screw you. In a competitive market, you can offer whatever you want, but the dealer has the right to say yes or no. Supply and demand will dictate how much he lets his product go for. Aged units, colors, trim levels, regional variances, etc... they all plays into the price.
You stated that you bought a few other vehicles at invoice, and since most manufacturers have holdback and a regional ad fee, you paid these and just didn't know it. Most hard copy invoices from the manufacturer don't itemize the fees - they're simply built into the invoice, just like you see here on Edmunds. The fees you saw on the vehicle inquiry report were itemized, but they tally up to the total invoice price the dealer was billed. Toyota can charge whatever they want for their products, and they did just that, and it's not a crime for a franchised dealer to pass on their costs to you - the consumer. This is where properly preparing yourself to make a purchase comes into play.
As for financing, when Toyota offers 0% or whatever special rate, in most cases, if a consumer is Tier 1 and above ( 700 FICO or higher) and they opt for that financing, they get it - nothing shady about it. What research have you done that proves otherwise? A dealer can't mark-up special financing, in fact, they may have to pay into it to help subsidize the low rate since it's usually well below current rates. In most cases, when a rebate is available in lieu of the special financing, and a customer opts for the financing, the money that would be used towards the rebate is typically shifted to subsidize the low rate. The only thing that might make a customer balk is a possible pre-payment penalty. TFS has no pre-payment penalty after 3 months, but what's shady about that? That's up to the lender, not the dealer.
In regards to the products/services a finance manager tries to sell you, it's not that hard to just say "no thank you" and move on. You can't take it personally if they mope (and who really cares anyway), and if they make you feel guilty, in essence, they've done their job.
#529 of 838 Re: Toyota's -0-% Financing [ocautoseeker]
Apr 09, 2008 (8:03 pm)
Let me back up to the beginning ....for any manufactured product, if its computers, software, manufacturered cars or any finished goods (wigets), manufactured in the U.S. or anywhere in the world for that matter, has the same accounting standards (GAAP) or methodogy to compute the total cost of a manufactured product or wiget . "Total Cost "of a manufactured product consists of 3 components : direct costs, indirect costs, and overhead= Total Costs of that manufactured product. This product or finished good is then sold to the retailer; in this case, the auto dealership. The auto dealership purchases the car from the manufactured as a complete unit. The actual price paid or total cost of A "car" is less than the posted Edmunds or Kelly Blue Book "dealer invoice sheet". The reality is that the so called "dealer invoice" is a reference standard for the consumer. This "standard cost sheet " is just a "reference sheet"; the so called "dealer invoice cost" that everyone sees listed on the internet is NOT the true and accurate cost reported to the EU (European Union for value added tax) nor the SEC nor posted or used in Generally Accepted Audited Financial Statements.For the accounting of retail dealerships in the U.S., GAAP or general accepted accounting procedures are used to compute profit or loss for each dealership. The accounting for retail dealerships are no different than the accounting for Walmart or Target or any retailer.
In the world of accounting for auto dealerships, costs paid and incurred by the retailer for such costs as marketing (advertising), bank financing (interest expense), salaries, rent, utilities are considered selling and overhead costs. In the real world, these costs paid or incurred by the retailer are not passed on to the consumer. The retailer, Walmart, does not charge the consumer for an additional mark up or "mandatory fees" in addition to the sale price of an item listed in sales ad, except for local sales tax (a true mandatory fee) or Oregon doesn't charge sales tax.
The MSRP is a suggested retail price. It is not mandated by the manufactured; it is only suggested. The so called "dealer's invoice" is just a reference to a standard cost of a finished item; it is definitely not used in financial or tax accounting that is reported to the SEC or IRS or EU.
In purchasing a car, the consumer negoitates A "price" that his willing to pay. He doesn't want to be nickled and dime; average "Joe" just wants "one -final -negotiated -price. " In the world of negoitations, one will often hear, "tax, license, complete" for 1-price. NOT,"or by the way I have to add marketing, interest, delivery to your final negotiated price.
According to all the auto brochures, "dealerships MAY include an advertising fee on top of the MSRP." Who pays MSRP? the dealer MAY ,not must, not will ...
Getting back to your comments. When a consumer pays in addition to his final negoiated price; he expects Tax, License and DMV fees. Not what the dealership demands that he pays (mandatory fees) in addition to. In the regulated world of the Federal Trade Commission for consumers, the fair market value of a product is determine between a willing buyer and a willing seller, NOT in addition to! That was my point. In my previous comments, I should have preface that I was coming from the world of accounting for tax and SEC.
Your points are well addressed in your comments. I am coming from a consumer and tax accountant. Have a great day!