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Luxury Performance Sedans

10007 messages,  Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 7:40 AM

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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

#9889 of 10007 Re: A4 it is [draz2] by lexusguy May 02, 2009 (12:12 am)
Replying to: draz2 (May 01, 2009 7:35 pm) All leases, all poseurs.   Right, so when its the TL outselling the G, the numbers count. When its the 3 series mopping the floor with the TL, the numbers don't count. Makes perfect sense. Replies to this message: draz2 (May 02, 2009 4:30 am) art234 (May 02, 2009 4:36 am)
#9890 of 10007 Re: A4 it is [lexusguy] by draz2 May 02, 2009 (4:30 am)
Replying to: lexusguy (May 02, 2009 12:12 am) Could you possibly take issue with the fact that BMW's are leased in far, far higher percentages than TL's (and Acura's in general)? Did you read last year how BMW had gotten killed with their lease returns? They overestimated the residual values and were stuck with huge inventories they couldn't sell at anywhere close to what they estimated the "residual value" would be.   Not so with TL. I'd estimate that over 80% of TL sales are just that...sales. 3 series BMW's (in particular) are probably about 75% leases.   Apples to oranges. Replies to this message: art234 (May 02, 2009 4:36 am)
#9891 of 10007 Lot of Emotion Here by art234 May 02, 2009 (4:34 am)
It's nice to see such a passionate debate going on here.   The Acura TL finished third in my choosing of cars for a number of reasons.   First, while it had lots of whistles and bells, I didn't like the ride as much as the Audi.   Second, the Audi was laid out better to my taste, and appeared more roomy in the front and back...while the rear seat room of the Acura may be slightly better, the trunk is almost 25% smaller than the Audi's.   Third, just because there are more of a particular car on the road doesn't mean its better.....Audi usually holds its value better than BMW because there are fewer out there--they don't flood the market.   I will also add that I drove the 335i x drive extensively as did my wife, and we both preferred the Audi. While we're talking 80something horses difference, the A4's performance was more than adequate, and the 2.0 actually outperforms some V6's out there, which is more than enough for me. I am not a horsepower junkie, and found the car to be fast enough for the short on ramps I deal with. Also the Audi's quattro system is about the best all wheel drive around especially in inclement weather--important to me since I live on a steep hill.   In the end, I enjoyed the Audi overall better than anything else I drove, and while that is subjective to me, I am very happy with my decision. I am getting the car built to my specs, and it will have the whistles and bells that I like...including 3G MMI, which is far advanced over the 2009 offering.   Regarding price, we are estimating the car will cost between $41K and $43K when all is said and done. They changed some packaging and equipment options for 2010, but I have already negotiated hard margin for the dealer ($500 over invoice, with all incentives to me).   Choosing a car is totally subjective--what I like you may not. Overall I think I was just done with Japanese cars for a while (the Volvo was my wife's not mine). Also, Infiniti is starving right now, and based on my experience they deserve what they are getting. They are basically a dressed up Nissan with a much higher price, and not much more value. But that's just me..... Replies to this message: houdini1 (May 02, 2009 5:08 am) draz2 (May 02, 2009 5:26 am) jimbres (May 02, 2009 5:29 am) barryend (May 04, 2009 4:44 am) art234 (May 05, 2009 12:37 pm)
#9892 of 10007 Re: A4 it is [draz2] by art234 May 02, 2009 (4:36 am)
Replying to: draz2 (May 02, 2009 4:30 am) FYI,   Infiniti is also getting killed with lease returns, especially on M35's--which is why they are not holding their value. Nissan continually over-residualizes them to get attractive lease rates, and then chokes on them when they come off lease.   Another positive note for seeing less of a car on the road--they usually hold their value a little better than mass merchandised cars....but time will tell.
#9893 of 10007 Re: Lot of Emotion Here [art234] by houdini1 May 02, 2009 (5:08 am)
Replying to: art234 (May 02, 2009 4:34 am) In the long run all that matters is that it is your money being spent so you get to choose what you buy! Certainly the A4 is a fine car that is very appealing to a lot of folks.   Passionate debates are what keeps my interest here at Edmund's but some of the rants are amusing. It shows a lot of immaturity because nearly all the cars represented here are great cars and attempting to belittle a certain car does not make another car any better.   One other odd thing about this particular debate is that technically, neither the TL nor the A4 is listed here as being a luxury performance sedan! Replies to this message: draz2 (May 02, 2009 5:26 am) jimbres (May 02, 2009 5:29 am)
#9894 of 10007 Re: Lot of Emotion Here [houdini1] by draz2 May 02, 2009 (5:26 am)
Replying to: houdini1 (May 02, 2009 5:08 am) >One other odd thing about this particular debate is that technically, neither the TL nor the A4 is listed here as being a luxury performance sedan! - -   And that's what rankles me the most. The TL undoubtedly belongs there. Nothing against the A4. It's a great car for what it is, but it's s very significantly smaller car with far less standard features than the TL. I think the TL solidly belongs in the class of the 5 series, A6, and E-class. And belongs there at a price that is far more competitive with their smaller siblings (A4, C-class, 3 series).
#9895 of 10007 Re: Lot of Emotion Here [houdini1] by jimbres May 02, 2009 (5:29 am)
Replying to: houdini1 (May 02, 2009 5:08 am) One other odd thing about this particular debate is that technically, neither the TL nor the A4 is listed here as being a luxury performance sedan!   Good point. This discussion is supposed to focus on mid-luxe - not entry level - cars. If we want to debate Audi / Acura / BMW, we should be talking about the A6, the RL & the 5-series. Lower priced cars are off-topic.
#9896 of 10007 Re: A4 it is [james27] by shmang May 02, 2009 (1:11 pm)
Replying to: james27 (May 01, 2009 7:31 pm) That sales number sounds reasonable. However, the Audi A4 includes the 2.0T and the 3.0. Let's assume (without knowing the actual) that the sales of 2.0T is 60% of all A4 sales, so the sales number of A4 2.0T is roughly 60% of Acura TL. Sounds reasonable?   As far as the style, it is in the eye of beholder and as long as there are more people like it, it is a sucessful design - it definitely is not for everyone.
#9897 of 10007 BMW 3 series vs. TL by shmang May 02, 2009 (1:16 pm)
IMO, they are not at the same level. 3 series smokes TL - not only on performance, but also in design, prestige and brand loyalty. Heck, I would consider Infiniti before Acura. But, if BMW's reliability can match up (with Infiniti, Lexus or Acura), I would own BMW exclusively.
#9898 of 10007 Re: A4 it is [draz2] by james27 May 02, 2009 (3:49 pm)
Replying to: draz2 (May 01, 2009 7:39 pm) If you really need your ego stroked, then I guess you'd never consider a good car from a 'lesser' car company...just no status in that. Personally, if I liked the car, I wouldn't care about the others waiting in the room.

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