Last post on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
#9023 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [allagaroo]
Jan 06, 2007 (10:28 am)
My situation almost exactly when I plunked down a deposit to order an M35X.
Lower lease payments, MORE technology (don't know about "better," though) and "close enough" to German feel for jazz (at $200 per month less, hell yes!)
Then Audi, for an almost $3K more expensive model came in UNDER the Infiniti price on the lease -- and "all I had to do" was threaten to buy the Infiniti, which I sort of already had done. The phone rang, the dealer said "what will it take and some $200 in monthly payment melted away as if by magic.
That was then, this may be different.
But, I came off a 2003 allroad with a mo pay of about $790 (including tax) and went to a $53,286 A6 for about $640 including tax. The Infiniti was $677 same deal.
The Audi, the German cars generally, have a feel, a taughtness and with Audis expertise in AWD an "edge" that no Infiniti (at this point), no matter how high up the food chain doesn't quite match.
Yet, to be clear, the Infiniti was close to that BMW/Audi feel, so close that for the price diff the Infiniti went from being #2 to #1 and ONLY when Audi dropped the price per mo did my former #1, return to #1.
My Audi A6 3.2 with all options save sport suspension is the best Audi I have ever had in almost every way. My most loved and fun Audi, however, remains my 1995 S6 -- but from a technology, quality and fit and finish standpoint, the C6 A6 is lightyears ahead of the '95. There was just something about that RUSH of power from the 5 cylinder 20v turbo, that causes me to mist up.
In other words, I hear you, I was there, I've been there and done that. If Audi will come down in price for you would you reconsider?
#9024 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [allagaroo]
Jan 06, 2007 (10:56 am)
Leaning towards the M! Cost, handling, steering, tech. I don't mention looks because that is individual preference.
If you can, try and spend a few hours with the M on a highway. The M is a blast on curvy two-lanes, but its highway ride and noise levels are definitely not for everybody.
#9025 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [markcincinnati]
Jan 06, 2007 (11:49 am)
"Servotronic" is Audi name, "Active steering" is BMW, etc. Actually, almost all high end cars have variable assist. However, the difference is in software, i.e. how much assist is there at certain speed. BMW steering gets harder faster than A6. A6 gets good feel at highway speeds, but feels anemic at 25 - 40 mph. On the ather hand, variable assist in S6 is excellent and the only difference, I believe, is in software that defines how much assist you get at which speed.
When you enter turn at a speed in A6 steering has one feel. Speed drops as you turn so when upon the exit you are returning wheel to the neutral position, steering has completely different feel. Quite odd feeling. I didn't feel that say, in Acura RL, which supposedly also has variable assist.
#9026 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [uglybear]
Jan 06, 2007 (1:20 pm)
I've hated every experience I've had with Active Steering. Zero road feel, and the variable ratio kept throwing me off course. No thanks, regular BMW steering is just fine.
#9027 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [uglybear]
Jan 06, 2007 (2:05 pm)
Servotronic is an Audi name? Servotronic is a purchased technology, Audi and BMW purchase it from ZF (and anyone else who wants BRAND NAME Servotronic or Servotronic II does too -- fur instance Cadillac.)
OK, if this is wrong and if your assertion is the proper case, wouldn't you think BMW would avoid using that name or if they did, they would have to give credit where credit is due?
E.g., ESP is a Bosch product (but it was, according to the Mercedes fine print, developed in "cooperation" with Mercedes.)
So, one configures a new BMW X3 and right there pops up Servotronic (not Audi Servotronic) as an optional extra -- $250. Configure a new 3 series and for $1275 you can opt for Active Steering.
Ask the BMW dealer (and I did just an hour ago) what the difference is, and the first quip is, "about $1000."
No, they are not identical, Active Steering does two things, Servotronic does one, Active Steering effectively incorporates Servotronic (not an Audi or BMW invention apparently.) Here is what you gets when you checks the option box for Active Steering: Servotronic which is ROAD SPEED sensitive boost, the lower the road speed the higher the boost and vice versa, with Active Steering you also get ratio variability. As the car changes road speed the speed at which the wheel turns changes. At one speed a 1/4 turn of the steering wheel yields "X" turn of the road wheels, at a different speed, it may take 1/2 a turn of the steering wheel to generate "X" turn of the road wheels, at yet another speed, it may only take 1/8 a turn to generate "X" turn of the road wheels.
Servotronic, according to the BMW sales guy is a HUGE improvement over non Servotronic set ups since it decreases boost as the road speed increases (the opposite of previous generations of "power steering" which generally remained linear or simply changed in step with engine RPM.)
Our BMW rep says Active Steering is an acquired taste and that Servotronic over a non-Servotronic set up feels "just right" (to him, obviously.)
Reading test reports of BMW models that were offered with OPTIONAL Servotronic, one can glean a message, Servotronic is a "wonderful" set up. Test reports praising the Servotronic steering can be found for the X3, X5 and M5. Other reports, less complimentary, can be found, too -- refering here to Active Steering.
Maybe both set ups are an acquired taste. The praise for the new S8's implementation and last year's M5 Servotronic implementation can be googled with ease.
Yet, if you do not drive back to back to back the same model with and without and then again with, you would be hard pressed to notice the boost differences, since the boost declines slowly as road speed rises.
The effect, once you become aware of what it feels like both ways, is better highway response without a rise in effort at low speed or when stopped.
BMW is moving all their vehicles to Active Steering. The interesting thing is, at this point, is that the code to special order Servotronic is one lower than the Active Steering option, making one wonder if the current price of Active Steering isn't the aspect that is over-boosted.
The US Audi A6 comes standard with Servotronic and the software that controls it seems to be quite like the software that controls the BMW implementation of Servotronic.
The Party Line:
Speed-proportional variable ratio steering from ZF
"The best steering feel is always at your fingertips, regardless of the conditions. ZF Servotronic steering incorporates speed-sensitivity to provide agile steering for easier manoeuvrability at low speed and greater feedback and stability at higher speeds."
The full report:
PowerSteering.com and I swear I did not make this up!
#9028 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [lexusguy]
Jan 06, 2007 (6:00 pm)
I left my M with a stereo installer who put in a bunch of Dynamat...it is a much nicer ride on the long interstate runs, yet you still hear the engine when you push it. I can hear the stereo better, and the voice recognition at speed is more reliable, too.
#9029 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [markcincinnati]
Jan 06, 2007 (9:51 pm)
BMW system seems to be different as it is not changing torque required to turn the wheel and rather changes ratio.
BMW Active Steering
Don't confuse this with common variable-assist power steering, which merely makes the wheel feel lighter at slow speeds and firmer when going fast. The technology also links up with an electronic stability-control system for further advantage: If the car senses it's about to skid, an electric motor can automatically apply a subtle countersteer to stabilize the car.
That's the difference: steering wheel still has meaty feeling, you just need to rotate it less. In A6 feel of the steering get lighter and ligher the slower you go. Sounds like standard variable assist to me.
#9030 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [uglybear]
Jan 07, 2007 (6:53 am)
You are correcto-mundo! The A6 has Servotronic, the slower you go the greater the boost. Servotronic II by ZF apparently (since I have not driven a car with this) changes both the force required based on road speed and the reaction to steering wheel motions (also releated to road speed.)
Audi, BMW, Cadillac, LandRover, Volvo all use Servotronic, some applications (in some models) use Servotronic II.
I think I would like Servotronic II, but several car magazines and our BMW salesrep seem to say it is an acquired taste. Some of the magazines have even called Active Steering maddening.
Since it, at this point, isn't free, I would suggest to anyone that they first test cars with and without it. It is, apparently, more and more likely that Servotronic (one) is making its way into more and more models from many manufacturers. I would suspect if ActiveSteering or whatever ZF calls their version when it is marketed to a willing buyer catches on, we'll see ever lighter steering feel and very little steering wheel input needed (at slow speeds) to cause a large turn in.
I do feel the road -- in this technology (Servotronic I) -- unlike the GM and Chryco products I grew up with in the 60's which had super boosted steering that felt like I wasn't turning a darn thing and any road feel was probably my imagination.
I will keep digging, but "if" Servotronic II is the underlying technology for Active Steering, it certainly appears that it varies both the torque and the ratio based on road speed. Cadillac literature actually uses the Roman Numeral II after the word Servotronic to describe, essentially, what is Active Steering.
One of the road tests of a BMW using this technology claimed ActiveSteering added "numbness" or subtracted road feel. Perhaps that is what you are commenting on?
Going from a 2003 Audi to a 2005 Servotronic equipped BMW X3 then to another Servotronic equipped Audi, I enjoyed what I would characterize as "increased and improved responsiveness." Servotronic II seems (on paper) like it might be the best of all worlds -- unfortunately, at this time, the 530xi and the 3 series x's cannot be had with ActiveSteering, but the X3 can be had with Servotronic I and the X5 with ActiveSteering (with the sport package option.)
Audi, on the other hand, will offer sport suspension (and remember with a 530xi you cannot get a sport suspension, but you can get a sport package that changes the seats and wheels) and Servotronic on their AWD cars (DOH!)
A 535xi with a sport suspension ought to be a fantastic car, perhaps an even better choice with THAT engine than the current V8's BMW offers.
After having driven the 335i, I am a believer in the new turbos from BMW -- and I would, I suspect, want one with Servotronic I or Active Steering if such would be offered.
#9031 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [markcincinnati]
Jan 07, 2007 (9:05 am)
If the Audi lease came down $200 per month I would seriously consider it but I doubt if it will. My salesman retired last month and i wanted to order a fully equipped '07 A6 3.2. from him before he left. he knew I had a problem with the increased cost and was considering M35 so he worked at $600 over invoice which translated to $797/month. All leases are 36 months. I was paying $568 for my '03. I think I can get the M35X for mid 600's and GS350AWD for high 600's. The reports on the M's nav system and back up camera are very positive. I'm not sure how the sound systems compare. If the Audi had kept the twin turbo at 300HP I would have paid the increase. I love the acceleration of the GS350 but don't know if I can live with the steering and small trunk. Need to make a decision soon!!!!!!!!!!
#9032 of 10348 Re: Is there a difference? [allagaroo]
Jan 07, 2007 (9:21 am)
"If the Audi lease came down $200 per month I would seriously consider it"
What acounts for the extra $150/month on the Audi over the M35? Interest rate (money factor) or sales price, or both?