Last post on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
Jan 03, 2007 (5:06 am)
If memory serves, Audi marketed the A6 (in the US at least) with three engines two 6's and one 8. BMW offered similarly positioned cars/engines.
But, for "even money" you could have a 6 in a BMW or an 8 in an Audi. The 2.7T engine in the A6 middle child was pitted against a much less powerful 6 in a BMW -- that I assume was meant to be positioned similarly.
The very first A8 started out life at 300HP while BMW 7's had less than 300 (282 as I recall.)
In days gone by, Audis offered more turbos throughout the line, equal to or higher than HP numbers, generally stronger torque numbers (and at lower RPM's). These days it seemed to be heading down a path of tit for tat.
The A6 comes to market with 255HP in the popular model while (for a time) the 5 settled for 225. Then the new 530 comes along with what? 255HP, same as Audis powerplant.
They both placed these 255HP 6's into their A4 and 3 series and their A6 and 5 series. Audi stopped importing a lower powered A6, but BMW for some reason continued with the lesser 5 series. Meanwhile back at the ranch, BMW was working on boosting the output of the 255HP i6 via turbocharging after Audi had dropped it as of the 2004 MY (in the V6 at least.)
The 4.2 is currently outputting 350HP in its typical state and considerably more in higher states of tune (and of course at times with turbocharging and at times NOT.)
We also have both a V10 and a V12 powerplant from Audi (and BMW.)
Currently Audi seems only to be missing a "middle child" engine (and maybe a "super child" engine, but at least that one seems to be virtually a foregone conclusion); and, that engine would be a 3.2T FSI one would imagine (or something altogether new that we simply don't know about.)
But BMW plans a 535, already has 2 335's and has promised a 335xi sedan in Q1 2007. Audi, thus far, seems to have no counter punch to a 535 -- and this doesn't seem to be in keeping with history, at least from my not entirely complete memory.
So in answer to your question, no that Audi have not always been the slowest/last of the German trio to boost displacement and horsepower. Sometimes they were ahead of the curve, sometimes behind. Currently, I am suggesting I see them getting behind if there is no boost (pun intended) of the power of the A6 3.2 (or A4 3.2) -- something in the range of 300HP would seem to be called for, especially once the 535 hits the NA market.
There will be customers who want a V6, not a V8, but want some more horses and torque (and a bit better gas mileage.)
At this moment, somewhat uncharacteristically IMHO, Audi does not appear to have a counterpunch.
When a 335 can be had for $7,000 less than an S4 and offers similar performance, the pro S4 argument becomes difficult to win. I can only imagine what will happen when there is a 535 if the only Audi counterpunch is a 4.2L V8 (for much more money.)
Just my perspective, of course.
Jan 03, 2007 (8:24 am)
But, what if Audis A6 4.2 is LESS money than a new 535xi?
Will that win friends and influence customers?
Or will the 535 be somehow compared with the then most potent 6 cylinder version of the A6 (and a similar offering from Mercedes in the E class?)
I do remember my friend's i6 5 series was MORE money than my V8 A6 back in 2001 -- and I had quattro too.
Nope, nope, nope -- I still think Audi needs a blown or at least more potent middle child 6 cylinder.
That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!
Jan 03, 2007 (10:51 am)
Yes, I agree. Audi needs to blow some sweet wind in that 3.2 motor. Or, maybe, [fingers crossed] they are going to bring the 3.6 to market, and blow a little love n it.
Either way, they can't stand pat. [no pun intended Pat ]
Also, I sent them a very forceful email about how crappy their ED program is when compared to BMW. It's little things like that that make me think that AOA is run by suits, badly in need of a lobotomy.
#8984 of 10348 Re: mark [dhamilton]
Jan 03, 2007 (11:22 am)
"Or, maybe, [fingers crossed] they are going to bring the 3.6 to market..."
Does Audi have a 3.6 liter variant of their V6?
Jan 03, 2007 (11:45 am)
Yes, no, but.
Sorta, kinda, maybe.
Check out the Q7 with the 6.
It is a 3.6L.
I heard it won't fit in an A6, tho.
I read about a 3.2T FSI mule that was deliberately tuned to be 295HP and some number OVER 300 for torque. I think it was "tuned" to be 295 so as not to threaten the 4.2 which at the time had a 310 or 320HP rating and perhaps just at 300 pound feet (at a higher RPM.)
Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding: BMW's 3.0 turbo is easily 300+ HP and sure nuff, the BMW sales reps say the 3.0 will somewhat cannibalize the sales of the V8's. It's the torque, it's the torque don't you know -- it comes on so strong, so early and then seems to just keep on in a nice linear fashion, well, it somewhat DOES make the V8 less necessary.
Then you add to it the blown engine's capabilities as the altitude rises and couple that with ever better economy and emissions, and again a 350HP V8 seems EXPENSIVE and darn near a "why bother" when we all know how easily a slightly hotter chipset can be put into the blown 6 banger and up its HP and torque another 10 - 20% without even breaking a sweat.
Hmm, a mild chip upgrade in the "35" Bimmer engine would take it to 330HP and add what "at least" another 30 pound feet.
Oh yea, Shipo, the answer to you question remains, "sort of."
#8986 of 10348 Re: mark [markcincinnati]
Jan 03, 2007 (12:09 pm)
Ahhh, you're talking about the VW VR6 engine. You are correct, it won't fit because it is too long (nearly as long as an I6).
#8987 of 10348 Re: MB Grows and grows and grows [dewey]
Jan 03, 2007 (1:37 pm)
You win the bet Dewey. The totals for 2006:
#8988 of 10348 Re: MB Grows and grows and grows [merc1]
Jan 03, 2007 (3:40 pm)
Other LPS 2006 Sales figues:
Lexus GS - 27,390
Cadillac STS - 25,676
Infiniti M - 25,658
Audi A6 - 16,216
Acura RL - 11,501
Jan 03, 2007 (7:03 pm)
what will fit in the next model. If the clutch is moved back, [four inches according to rumors] and the engine supposedly fitting in differently, then indeed, who knows.
So mark, are you saying that the new torque vectoring will work more like the Nissan ATTESSA? Or will it still be a full time AWD system.
Jan 03, 2007 (8:53 pm)
GM, is working on a overhead-cam V8 codenamed "Ultra" which is most likely to debut in the 2009' Cadillac STS. It is expected to make power numbers similar the big-bore Mercedes Benz's engine fleet.