Ask the Car People.SM


Luxury Performance Sedans

10338 messages,  Last post on May 01, 2013 at 3:12 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

Messages Page 886 of 1035

#8847 of 10338 Re: . [lexusguy] "That's a fact" [domenickamarc] by sfcharlie

Dec 09, 2006 (1:40 pm)

Replying to: domenickamarc (Dec 09, 2006 1:04 pm)
Domenick, I agree.
 
A related example ...
 
According to Consumer Reports, most newly designed models have more problems during their first model year than in the model year before or in the model years that follow. First-year models continue to have more problems as they age . Using cars made in 2000, 2001, and 2002 CR identified the 2000 BMW as the least reliable first year newly introduced model. When I did a cursory check of BMW history, I couldn't find a major BMW series that was in its first year in 2000. Do any of the BMW fans here know what brand-new 2000 BMW model CR might be referring to? Otherwise, is this another example of CR using data any way that helps to make a dramatic point?

#8848 of 10338 Re: . [lexusguy] "That's a fact" [domenickamarc] by cdnpinhead

Dec 09, 2006 (2:41 pm)

Replying to: domenickamarc (Dec 09, 2006 1:04 pm)
The vast majority of people who drive cars in the lux or near-lux categories lease them. I won't trouble you with my riff on that subject.
 
If one leases, one couldn't care less how well the vehicle does after it's turned in. Plus which, while in possession of the car, no money needs to change hands. Hey, everything was covered by the warranty, and my time spent taking the vehicle in 1-XX times (I got a loaner!!) is worth nothing. What's not to like?
 
Point being, high-mileage data of any value whatsoever for cars that are mostly leased is hard to come by. We're left with anecdotal stuff, which is better than nothing.
 
Unless it doesn't support or advance your point of view.

#8849 of 10338 Re: . [lexusguy] "That's a fact" [domenickamarc] by lexusguy

Dec 09, 2006 (5:35 pm)

Replying to: domenickamarc (Dec 09, 2006 1:04 pm)
I have not been able to find reliability data that compares repair records of cars between, say, 50K and 100K. Have you?
 
"Using data from the 2001-2005 surveys, we compared how the vehicle lines from the major manufacturers fared as their vehicles age. We combined manufacturers' problem rates for one-year-old vehicles from each of the five surveys and did the same for two year old vehicles, and so on. Some key findings:
 
    * The Asian manufacturers are more reliable on average, and continue to age more gracefully.
    * American manufacturers still have not closed the gap between them and the Asians. Ford has been, and continues to be the most reliable among the domestic manufacturers for older vehicles.
    * The European manufacturers continue to lag behind. Mercedes-Benz has fallen off in recent years."
 

#8850 of 10338 CR's own brand of statistics by domenickamarc

Dec 09, 2006 (8:18 pm)

I'm willing to be nitpicky here, statistically speaking. I've seen those CR graphs, but have not been able to read the numbers. Nor can I find any data (typical of CR) about how many units of each "competitor" are included in each year's comparisons, nor whether the cars at, for example, age 6, have been driven a similar number of miles.
 
As one exazmple, of how CR narrates its survey results, CR asserted: "According to our latest (2005) subscriber survey, Japanese and Korean vehicles still have the fewest problems on average." What are the differences between those Asian and American or European makes? Asian vehicles have 12 problems per 100 vehicles in the previous 12 months. U.S. makes had an average problem rate of 18 problems per 100. European makes, had 21 problems per 100 vehicles. So, what the reliability graphs show is that if you own an European car, in the worst case scenario, you had two repairs performed on your car in the past year, while the average owner of an Asian car had one repair performed.
 
Similarly, in the graphs and associated explanations copied by lexusguy, all CR will refer to is "manufacturers' problem rates", which, with CR often does mean that one car will be implied to be statistically more reliable (if it went into the shop for 1.2 repairs a year) than another car (that went into the shop for 1.7 repairs per year).
 
I would still assert that none of us can find any data about which we can have a discussion of how often cars need to be repaired as the mileage accumulates.

#8851 of 10338 NEWLY RECOMMENDED by CR by sfcharlie

Dec 09, 2006 (9:02 pm)

Models with improved reliability
Audi A6
Audi S4
Chevrolet Malibu
Dodge Durango
Ford Freestyle
Hyundai Tucson
Kia Sorento
Mazda6

#8852 of 10338 Re: CR's own brand of statistics [domenickamarc] by lexusguy

Dec 09, 2006 (10:20 pm)

Replying to: domenickamarc (Dec 09, 2006 8:18 pm)
I would still assert that none of us can find any data about which we can have a discussion of how often cars need to be repaired as the mileage accumulates.
 
Yeah, unfortunately CR's reports and the VDS is about all their is. All I can say is that in my experience, critical mechanical parts in Japanese cars, transmissions, pumps, hoses, rotors, etc. tend to last a really long time. The interiors and electronics seem to start falling apart past 175K miles or so, but the cars will keep running.

#8853 of 10338 Past 175K? by domenickamarc

Dec 09, 2006 (10:59 pm)

Yeah, unfortunately CR's reports and the VDS is about all their is. All I can say is that in my experience, critical mechanical parts in Japanese cars, transmissions, pumps, hoses, rotors, etc. tend to last a really long time. The interiors and electronics seem to start falling apart past 175K miles or so, but the cars will keep running.
 
My guess is that, if we set the discussion point at 175K, we're pretty much down to a few anecdotes on this board. How many of us have kept even a couple of both German and Japanese cars past 175K miles?
 
We're into mythology at that point, not statistics. But, hey, whole cultures are guided by mythology and their self-fulfilling prophecy property (e.g. if you believe Japanese cars last forever and you're going to buy a car to keep for ten years, then you'll buy a Japanese car, keep it going to 200K, and tell al your friends it lasted forever; ditto, if you carry a runs-forever myth about German cars) keeps many believers happy.

#8854 of 10338 Re: Past 175K? [domenickamarc] by autoedu

Dec 10, 2006 (12:21 am)

Replying to: domenickamarc (Dec 09, 2006 10:59 pm)
Hey, what about Swedish cars? Everyone seems to forget about them...
 
You know Saabs & Volvos, they last forever too, well beyond 175K.
There is one exceptional case where a funny dude named Irv Gordon who still drives his World Record holder and famed Volvo P1800 passed the 2 millions miles mark and counting...(just google Irv Gordon and you'll see)
 
OK, let's not count that Volvo (it's an exception to the rule & that dude must have spent half his life driving in his Volvo) but if we bring it up in our discussion the 175K mark seems diminutive in comparisons.

#8855 of 10338 Re: Past 175K? [autoedu] by lexusguy

Dec 10, 2006 (1:04 am)

Replying to: autoedu (Dec 10, 2006 12:21 am)
You know Saabs & Volvos, they last forever too, well beyond 175K.
 
In the past, perhaps. Now I'm not so sure. Saabs lately have been pretty mediocre even in their first few years of life. I also don't think that today's Volvos will last for an eternity like those wagons from the '70s. Volvo's reliability in the late '90s stunk. The initial MY S80 was loaded with reliability problems. They've definitely improved a lot since then, but I dont think they are necessarily better than anyone else.

#8856 of 10338 Re: Past 175K? [lexusguy] Swedish question by domenickamarc

Dec 10, 2006 (9:25 am)

Replying to: lexusguy (Dec 10, 2006 1:04 am)
I know old Volvo 240s from the late 1980s and early 1990s are still one of the car models likely to be a teenager's first "clunker" in my area.
 
The brief exchange highlights an issue we seem to get muddled. We really don't know the correlation among (1) repair-frequency during first three-years; (2) repair-frequency at various post-warranty mileages (when I once bought a cheap used Volvo 240 for a high school nephew, I didn't care if it was a 1990, 1991, or 1992, but, since it was 2000, I wanted to know the mileage); (3) time off the road for unscheduled maintenance (my sister absolutely loves her Mini Cooper; she reported in her CR survey 3 repairs in the first year, which were all minor glitches having nothing to do with driving and which were all taken care of during the day she brought it in for her first scheduled maintenance but which will show up as three dings against Mini in the next CR survey; whereas my neighbor's Lexus RX-300 was in the shop for two weeks for "only one repair", at 3K after he couldn't get the car to move in any gear when he got back in at a shopping center parking lot); (4) variations in satisfaction with total post 100K ownership experience (one of our managers is a keep-Toyota-till-they-fall-apart-guy and his closest personal relationship is with a family-run repair shop, but he loves the whole process, for some perverse reason, in which his "guys" manage to find cheap ways to repair it or keep it going).
 
All of which is to say that we have no way, right now, given how data is collected, to know how to bet on the following horse-race: We gather up 150 Japanese, 150 German, and (OK) 150 Swedish cars with 100+K miles. We assign them randomly to 50 families to be driven another 100K -- one of each type of car to each family. When all cars have been driven 200K miles, we add up number of repairs, days in shop for unscheduled service, total cost of repairs. We also ask the test-subjects "If you had to do this again and had to do it with one of the three cars we gave you, which one would you pick?"

Messages Page 886 of 1035

To POST a message, please Sign In.

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement