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Luxury Performance Sedans

10339 messages,  Last post on May 30, 2013 at 3:26 PM

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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

Messages Page 871 of 1035

#8696 of 10339 Re: Horsepower forum? [markcincinnati] by fonefixer

Nov 08, 2006 (10:04 am)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Nov 07, 2006 3:09 pm)
I don't have any data to back this statement up, but I don't think my 2000 A6 2.7T was a lemon. It would be fascinating to collect stories from owners that have put on the 100,000 miles that I did and compare the Audi driving experience.
 
 Appears from discourse with mechanics and dealers that the non-maintenance items that were replaced/repaired on this Audi were about an "average" situation for the miles logged.
 
In fact, I was informed by those in the know that at about 125,000 miles, these cars have major catastrophic breakdowns and significant electrical problems.
 
This all reinforces what you have been writing for the past several years, that Audis are breathtakingly expensive to repair and driving one without a warranty/lease is a no-no.
 
I'm not picking on Audi, this just happens to be my experience the last 6+ years. Would say that all LPS are "breathtakingly expensive" to repair and who knows about their longetivity after 125,000 miles?
 
I have heard from Lexus drivers that the cars are indeed good and trouble free, but that the Lexus maintenance program is a "ripoff." Heard complaints that adhering to the schedule has you coming into the Lexus dealer every 5,000 miles for a minimum of $500+. Somebody has to pay for that new showroom /waiting room with wide screen Tv, wireless internet, free snack bar, conference room, and probably even a suite to take a nap while your Lexus is being serviced!

#8697 of 10339 Lemon/Normal/Data? by sfcharlie

Nov 08, 2006 (11:50 am)

Replying to: fonefixer (Nov 08, 2006 10:04 am)
If we have had some skepticism about how well CR and JDP predict reliability in a meaningful way (much less predict overall ownership and driving satisfaction), we are on even thinner ice when it comes to cars in the 75K to 125K chapters of their lives.
 
Mostly it's anecdotal.
 
On one website (British Warranty Direct) they draw on their experience paying for beyond-manufacturers-warranty repairs, and provide the 100 most reliable cars of the last decade. Here are the first 50 in order: 1 Honda Accord 2 Subaru Forester 3 Mazda MX-5 4 Mitsubishi Carisma 5 Toyota Yaris 6 Honda Civic 7 Nissan Almera 8 Honda CR-V 9 Toyota RAV4 10 Nissan Micra 11 Lexus IS 200 12 Mazda 626 13 Jaguar X-Type 14 Toyota Landcruiser 15 Volvo S/V40 16 MINI (BMW) 17 Suzuki Vitara 18 Mazda 323 19 Toyota Carina E 20 Saab 9-5 21 Lexus LS400 22 Ford Ka 23 Rover 45 24 Hyundai Lantra 25 Mercedes SLK 26 Citroen Xsara 27 Ford Cougar 28 Subaru Impreza 29 Skoda Octavia 30 Audi A4 31 Nissan Primera 32 Toyota Avensis 33 Volvo 850 34 Vauxhall Corsa 35 Seat Toledo 36 Volkswagen Golf 37 Daewoo Lanos 38 Fiat Brava 39 Hyundai Coupe 40 Mitsubishi Shogun 41 Rover 25 42 Mercedes CLK 43 Fiat Marea 44 Ford Focus 45 Peugeot 106 46 MG MG TF 47 BMW Z3 48 Hyundai Accent 49 Volkswagen Polo 50 Fiat Punto.
 
Occasionally, there are comments, like this one from David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' auto test center: "Detroit's automakers are closing the gap with top Japanese automakers when it comes to quality and reliability in the early years of ownership...But as the cars age, the difference tends to grow so that the long-term durability is basically not as good" for the U.S. brands, he said at an Automotive Press Association luncheon. "By eight years, there are likely to be twice as many problems with the domestics."
 
But CR doesn't give data to support that comment. In its detailed report, Consumer Reports drew up its list of reliable 2006 models based on the vehicles' track record over the past three years. For new or refreshed models, such as the Chevrolet Cobalt and Infiniti M35/M45, it based its conclusions on samplings from a much shorter period.
 
The trouble with complaints about German cars made five or six years ago is that the Germans, in particular, have been immersed in a very committed effort to catch up with Japanese consistency in quality/reliability/dependability, so it might be 2008 or 2009 before we see how well their efforts match the type of measurements (however much any of us might be skeptical of those measurements) made by CR and JDP, which Audi and Mercedes have made it clear they are intent on doing because they want to sell in the U.S. and they have learned that here, especially, CR and JDP wield significant influence, not in getting people to buy what they recommend but in getting people to not buy what they don't recommend -- true enough to worry Mercedes and Audi, even if each of us knows of a few friends who fell in love with and bought a car that CR said will blow up at 25K.

#8698 of 10339 Re: Horsepower forum? [fonefixer] by lexusguy

Nov 08, 2006 (11:53 am)

Replying to: fonefixer (Nov 08, 2006 10:04 am)
I'm not picking on Audi, this just happens to be my experience the last 6+ years. Would say that all LPS are "breathtakingly expensive" to repair and who knows about their longetivity after 125,000 miles?
  
I have heard from Lexus drivers that the cars are indeed good and trouble free, but that the Lexus maintenance program is a "ripoff." Heard complaints that adhering to the schedule has you coming into the Lexus dealer every 5,000 miles for a minimum of $500+.
 
German luxury performance sedans, perhaps. Any Acura, Infiniti, or Lexus with regular oil changes should be able to do 125K miles in its sleep. Legends, Q45s, and LS400s with well over 200K on them are certainly not uncommon.
 
As for Lexus service prices, we have bought ours rather than leased them, so really we can do whatever we want with them. I'm not entirely sure what happens to the warranty if you choose to have your Lexus serviced outside of the dealer, but the chances of a Lexus needing major work while the warranty is still in effect are so slim that it may be worth it to some to give up the warranty for cheap service.
 
We've been doing the 5K mile services until the warranty has run out "just in case", and then have been sending our cars in every 7500 miles or so. The convenience of pick up\drop off is worth it to us, otherwise we'd probably use the local shops. That said, I don't think Lexus' prices are really outside the norm for luxury brands that don't cover scheduled maintainance. I know for a fact that Volvo service departments charge outrageous prices. Infiniti and Acura are probably similar to Lexus.

#8699 of 10339 Re: Horsepower forum? [fonefixer] by markcincinnati

Nov 08, 2006 (3:15 pm)

Replying to: fonefixer (Nov 08, 2006 10:04 am)
I work with people who have Acura's, BMW's and several other brands.
 
I would say that BMW's are breathtakingly expensive to repair out of warranty.
 
Some friends have a Lexus -- it is "largely" bullet proof.
 
However, the owner tells me little wear and tear items are also breathtakingly expensive and keep going out.
 
The phrase "overall the Lexus is very reliable, but it tends to nickel and dime you" leaps to mind.
 
Had dinner with our friends last week and they do love their Lexus -- but as soon as the warranty was over the tire pressure monitors go out. Somehow, someway, the system itself needs some parts, the wheel sending device and of course the labor to dismount and remount and WHAM the better part of $1,000 is shot.
 
I mentioned my friend with a 56,000 mile old BMW and its $900 for the FRONT rotors and brake replacement since BMW requires 100% replacement of everything and this was just for the fronts.
 
The list of breathtakingly expensive stuff just goes on and on.
 
Conversely, another friend and co worker has a 2000 Chevy pick up truck -- the big one with 4WD, leather and power everything.
 
He has had the mufflers go out twice and the tires go out twice and the "power window regulators" go out twice.
 
The thing, by comparison, "takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'" -- he has well over 100K miles on the truck and it actually looks good, rides good and sucks gas, but that is nothing new.
 
I know all the "we're not worthy, we're not worthy" evidence pertaining to Lexus and perhaps Infiniti.
 
The cost of "CPOing" is generally $1,000 to $1,500 -- it just seems like money well spent.
 
Moreover, if you are use your car about 16,666 miles per year for three years and factor in all the potential, possible and probable "normal" repair costs, precipitous depreciation (especially of LPS cars) and thrown in sub-venting from the leasing arms of a lot of these imports, well, it is clear they were never intended to be purchased in the first place (they were intended to be leased, loved and left at 50K miles or sooner, i.e.)
 
I grow weary sometimes -- especially as I age and time goes by so quickly -- since I have, at this moment, found a car I would like to keep (my 2005 A6 3.2) until the wheels turn square.
 
But, the truth of the matter is, my lease payment is $640 and change every month. My sec dep was waived, and my wakin' out costs including the first mo pay were less than $1,000 and Audi financial forgave my last three payments on my 2003 allroad (which were about $750) -- so much as I want to keep my "flawless and fun to drive" 2005 A6 3.2, it will probably be cheaper to walk away at about month 33 or 34 and walk into another new (German or Japanese) LPS car.
 
And the hell of it is, I really like this car probably better than almost any other car I've had.
 
But, as I have said, I am almost certain I would be saying the same thing had I moved forward with the Infiniti that I "came this close" to leasing.
 
I sometimes wonder if it would be possible to make cars like software, that is, allow a new release of "parts" of the car, the electronics, the instrumentation etc, to allow one to continuously evolve the car over a much longer period.
 
For the life of me, I just can't see how keeping this Audi (or any LPS car for that matter) can be made to work what with the lease payment options regularly and routinely subvented as they are.
 
One more thing, there are still some very nice 2006 A6 Slines sitting around with "-$7,500" off sticker signs on them which, when coupled with the aforementioned lease programs makes buying one incomprehensible (to me at least.)
 
So, perhaps I will "get the itch" again in 15 months -- I don't seem to have much choice since Cincinnati isn't noted for its vast subway or street car system.
 
"I can't drive 55"

#8700 of 10339 Re: Horsepower forum? [markcincinnati] by fonefixer

Nov 08, 2006 (6:26 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Nov 08, 2006 3:15 pm)
Your remark about the $900 front brakes on a 56,000 mile BMW, is, rather simply, "breathtaking"! I just changed out the original front brake pads on my 86,000 mile TOY camry, and while I did do the job myself, the parts cost was $42.00. The rotors were fine and should last until the next pad replacement. Auto repair truly is one of the last frontiers in this country, except that the frontier has a starting line , but no ending point.
 
I think I'm more irritated by the general inconvenience of all the Audi repairs over the last 6+years ,i.e., sometimes taking 2 to 3 weeks for completion. I bought the extended service plan on my replacement Mazda Cx-7 for $1350.00 which covers the second 3 years/50,000 miles. Hoping the plan will need minimum usage and that I'll only be a visitor to the Mazda dealer for routine services.
 
Understanding that you are satisfied with the A6,buying this type of car at the end of the lease, even adding the extended warranty, probably doesn't make a lot of economic sense.To add insult to injury, many Audi potential owners do not realize all the extra expenses that "pop up" between 36 and 100,000 miles that aren't included in the service plan that wouldn't normally occur in the first 3 years of average leased driving.

#8701 of 10339 Re: Horsepower forum? [fonefixer] by shipo

Nov 08, 2006 (7:43 pm)

Replying to: fonefixer (Nov 08, 2006 6:26 pm)
"Your remark about the $900 front brakes on a 56,000 mile BMW, is, rather simply, "breathtaking"! I just changed out the original front brake pads on my 86,000 mile TOY camry, and while I did do the job myself, the parts cost was $42.00."
 
Hmmm, well I did all for wheels on my 328i, rotors, pads and sensors included for less than $250. Apparently Camrys aren't alone in the low cost brake job world.
 
Best Regards,
Shipo

#8702 of 10339 Re: Horsepower forum? [markcincinnati] by anthonyp

Nov 08, 2006 (8:42 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Nov 08, 2006 3:15 pm)
It`s too bad WE have to wait fifteen months, as I, for one ,really enjoy your multi page report on your new car..Your joy really comes through in your writing..Tony

#8703 of 10339 Mazda versus Audi reliability? Something odd here. by sfcharlie

Nov 08, 2006 (10:37 pm)

We've been talking about Audi and Mazda as if it's a matter of fact that the average Mazda has had significantly fewer problems than the average Audi.
 
In the 2006 JD Powers Vehicle Dependability Study, both Mazda and Audi were listed as having been well below average. The average Lexus, Buick, and Cadillac were reported to have had about 1.5 problems during the first three years, while the average Mazda had about 2.5 and the average Audi had 2.8.
 
Disclaimer: I love Mazdas and we own one and it's a kick to drive -- one of the best buys among small cars in terms of fun for the buck. My favorite Japanese brand. I wouldn't at all mind owning a CX-7 and would actually prefer it to a Q7, but because it's sportier, not because I assume it will need fewer repairs.
 
Nonetheless, there is no statistical evidence to suggest that a disgruntled 2000 Audi owner will spend less time at the service department with 2007 Mazda than with a 2007 Audi. Emotionally, however, switching brands when you've owned a lemon seems like good therapy to me.

#8704 of 10339 Re: Horsepower forum? [shipo] by 530ir1150r

Nov 09, 2006 (6:37 am)

Replying to: shipo (Nov 08, 2006 7:43 pm)
My 2002 530i SP 5sp still has over 50% of the pads remaining. My brake job cost is $0 plus two brake fluid replacements.

#8705 of 10339 Re: Horsepower forum? [fonefixer] Audi woes of biblical proportions by domenickamarc

Nov 09, 2006 (8:18 am)

Replying to: fonefixer (Nov 08, 2006 6:26 pm)
many Audi potential owners do not realize all the extra expenses that "pop up" between 36 and 100,000 miles that aren't included in the service plan that wouldn't normally occur in the first 3 years of average leased driving."
 
We have to update the prediction of "the weeping and the gnashing of teeth" for potential Audi owners to read: Many Audi potential owners do not realize all the extra expenses that "pop up" between 50 and 100,000 miles that aren't included in the service plan that wouldn't normally occur in the first 4 years of the new 4 year, 50K manufacturers warranty.

Messages Page 871 of 1035

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