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Sedans Luxury Performance Sedans
10007 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 7:40 AM
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Replying to: 610looper (Nov 05, 2006 12:48 am) Hardly. The TL and CL Type S cars had very sloppy handling, lousy brakes, bad interiors, and transmissions that liked to fail. Even the Volvo C70 coupe, which was based on the 850 sedan from around 1993, handled better than the CL Type-S. BMW had no threat from Japan until the G35 arrived in '03. The IS300, if it had been done correctly, could've been one. I'm not sure that the "German horses are bigger" argument still holds up anymore. The 335i and IS350 are just about equal in 0-60 runs, and horsepower is basically the same. The LS430 is VERY fast for its 278hp, certainly faster than the 275hp S430.
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Lexusguy, OK...I understand what you're drawing attention to: German versus Japanese engines. A few thoughts (very subjective): German "premium" brands don't specifically build for U.S. the way Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura do. In U.S. auto media comparison tests, there is much weight given to which car accelerates fastest in any similarly priced group. Japanese manufacturers, I believe, build to win those contests in the U.S. press -- and it works, here. Internationally, on a scale of 1 to 10, BMW and Mercedes sell 10. Audi sells 8. It's then a long drop to Volvo and Lexus, which would (on a graph) be around 4. In the 2 to 3 range would be Cadillac, Acura, Lincoln, and Infiniti. For example, worldwide BMW sales rose by about 120,000 vehicles to 1,328,000 in 2005. Mercedes also was over one million. Audi's figure was 829,109. Internationally, and (to Mercedes, BMW, and Audi, perhaps almost as important) at home in Germany, the German big-3 outsell foreign competitors in the LPS category, unlike the U.S. and Japan. They build the smooth, refined engines and drivetrains that keep their premium image alive and separated (in buyers' minds) from Japanese brands. So far, it works for them. Whatever they're doing, it works on me. Viscerally, in response to the post about BMW 530xi versus Infiniti M35x, I don't experience the two cars as being in the same category. I think the G35 and M35 hit a mark (which I subjectively categorize as luxurious muscle cars) but don't (yet) enter what I'd call the Premium LPS realm, where "smooth and refined" meets "powerful and engaging". I found the G35 and M35 to be wicked fast and fun, but somewhat noisy, with rears that don't take bumps well, and engines that over-depend on low-geared transmissions to suck great amounts of gas in order to push cars to victory in 0 to 60 tests, while German brands put enormous effort into slowly evolving more power (with each engine generation) through sophisticated technology (such as Audi's FSI) that combines more power with better gas mileage and keeps the whole experience like "warp-speed" acceleration on the old Star Trek series, rather than a roller-coaster ride. As I said, all very subjective ... but then that's what we're sharing with each other, our subjective and visceral takes on these wonderful cars.
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Replying to: domenickamarc (Nov 05, 2006 9:33 am) I'm not sure what the LPS sales are in Japan, but here in the states BMW and Mercedes still have the lead by a largin margin in the LPS catgory, and they outsell Audi 3 or 4-to-1. The M35's version of the VQ35 is last generation, so it only has VVT on the intake side. Still, its a very highly regarded engine, being on the Wards list 12 years running. The problem is there is only so much they can do with just 5-speeds. They are down one gear to just about everyone else (two gears to the E class), except the RL which is in the same boat and also has poor fuel economy. I'm having a tough time finding the M35's ratios, as Infiniti annoyingly doesn't list them on their site. I think 5th gear is somewhere around 0.83:1, compared to 0.69:1 for the automatic 530xi in 6th. There's just no way the Infiniti can compete when it comes to highway fuel economy.
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Replying to: lexusguy (Nov 05, 2006 12:09 pm) As for Audi, they are coming along ... The brand set a new record for vehicle sales in 2005 for the tenth year in succession: 829,109 vehicles were delivered to customers worldwide, an increase of 6.4 percent (2004: 779,441). The largest individual export market is the USA with 83,066 units (77,917, up 6.6 percent), but that's still just 10% of Audi's volume. Audi sold 247,125 vehicles in Germany, 12,033 (5.1 percent) more than in 2004. In Great Britain Audi sold 81,374 (up 4.5 percent) and China with 58,878 (up 9.6 percent). The above-average growth of Audi in Western Europe led to the brand achieving a record market share of 4.2 percent in 2005.
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Replying to: sfcharlie (Nov 05, 2006 12:25 pm) Ok, I gotcha now. Yes, that seems to be unique to the Europeans in that they are very loyal to their own brands. Ford and GM's Opel\Vauxhall brands have somewhat of a presence, but Chrysler, GM U.S. brands like Cadillac, and the Japanese are basically footnotes in Europe. |
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Replying to: lexusguy (Nov 04, 2006 9:00 pm) I can't say my Audi ownership has been pleasant during my 100,000 mile "test-drive". Without the extended service plan, the repair expenses for this car would have approached $10,000 during the last 3 years. Joining the local Audi club was also critical because I was alerted to an able independent Audi mechanic who made the franchised Audi dealer's non service plan covered charges look downright ridiculous. My now extensive experience with the Audi brand has me convinced that these types of cars are solely lease material, you give them back after 3 years or so and move on to the next car. An Audi driver should not have to work as hard as I did to keep this car running. I was very fortunate to have been able to sell the car privately for a fair price just after the service plan expired, before the next repair issue landed in my lap!
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Replying to: fonefixer (Nov 06, 2006 4:39 pm) Thanks for that clarification. And apologies for my first post. It was unnecessarily harsh or confronting or something like that. Did the twin-turbo 6-cylinder A6, before it got old and tired, have more or less turbo-lag than the new 4-cylinder CX-7? Reliability? No question, the Americans and Germans have had to play catch-up. A whole expectation-set about cars has developed over the last twenty years, centered around Japanese cars and nurtured by CR and JDP: as consumers, we've come to expect a much better repair-experience than European and American brands have given us. But, I would say, European and American car manufacturers are catching up, while Japanese cars may have gotten about as reliable as they can get, or, in some cases, as with Toyota recently, face a danger of slipping as, ironically, their success leads to fast increases in the number of new models (shorter time making sure everything's perfect) and just plain old fast increases in production. For example, Mercury, Buick and Cadillac came in ahead of Toyota in JDP's 2006 vehicle dependability survey and Toyota has had one of its largest recalls in its history. Meanwhile, to take MB as an example, this week's Business Week has a feature article which claims that "a focus on quality and cost has the luxury carmaker humming again." We'll see, of course, but while three years ago, I would have agreed that, with the possible exception of newer BMWs, if you wanted to keep a car for 100K mile or more, you'd better buy Japanese, now I'm not so convinced that the same cannot be said about the newer Audi, MB, Porsche, and BMW models -- especially since so many of us seem to be getting the extended warranties with whatever car we buy.
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Replying to: domenickamarc (Nov 07, 2006 12:02 pm) Since the Mazda is a new model, there is no data about reliability. I just hope that it has to be better than the Audi, which never went more than 4 0r 5 thousand miles between repairs, in warranty or out. This is a list of repairs performed on this car in the last 6 years: 1.) driver's window motor 2.) passenger window motor 3.) climate control module 4.) heater blower motor 5.) front lower tie rods 6.) front brake rotors---5 times 7.) air conditioning vacuum assembly 8.) secondary electric fan 9.) turn signal module 10.) air bag control module 11.) valve cover gaskets 12.) cam chain gasket 13.) water pump 14.) timing belt 15>) tensioner rollers 15.) air pump I didn't realize when buying this car that the twin turbo Audi was, and probably still is one of the most sophisticated and complex cars on the road and getting anything fixed would be quite the chore in many ways. Do you think that the new ones are more reliable?
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Replying to: fonefixer (Nov 07, 2006 12:52 pm) Well, yeah, that's what I'm speculating will turn out to be the case. Your experience was horrendous. If I had that experience with any brand-product, from refrigerator to car, I don't know that I could ever bring myself to buy another product from that manufacturer. But, what I'm reading, in many publications, is that the German carmakers have gotten the message, especially over the past five years: here in the U.S. we will drop you like a hot potato if we form the impression that you're peddling high-class lemons. And they quickly (frantically) have mobilized in response, essentially copying from the Japanese what the Japanese originally learned from an American theorist (about insuring consistent quality production). So, even if you just look at the progression of red (good) and black (bad) dots in CR's reports on Audi, the red dots have displaced the black ones (but not eliminated them yet) going from 2000 through 2005. |
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Replying to: lexusguy (Nov 05, 2006 7:34 am) I think German horses are still bigger. On the IS350, it appears that Lexus advertises the best time anyone ever achieved, downhill, downwind as the "official" perfromance figure. BMW usually conservatively underestimates their performance figures. From Motor Trends separate test of the two cars, the BMW (4.9) is significantly quicker than the Lexus (5.5) I've never driven the LS and S430 back to back, but I did drive the 545i and GS430 back to back a couple of years age and, in spite of similar power ratings, there was no comparison whatsoever. I subsequently saw 0-60 times by the various car magazines that put the BMW 0.5 to 1.0 second ahead of the Lexus. Even the lower horsepower rated E430 felt quicker than the Lexus, but I don't remember any road test results. Certainly, all of these cars are "quick enough" for the luxury performance sedan segment. But I do appreciate a corporate philosophy that is conservative in it's advertising and overdelivers in substance. The 911S I have is rated by Porsche at "only" 4.7 seconds 0-60. On paper, that's not that much quicker than an IS350, if you belive Lexus figures. But all of the road tests of the 911S come in at 3.9 to 4.3, which is pretty close to supercar territory. As an owner of two Acura's, I will give Lexus credit for at least not having to downward revise it's entire fleet for overstating horsepower the way Honda/Acura had to. But if I see a manufacturer's performance figures, I still give the Germans - especially BMW and Porsche - the highest credibility rating. |
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