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Luxury Performance Sedans

10338 messages,  Last post on May 01, 2013 at 3:12 PM

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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

Messages Page 869 of 1035

#8676 of 10338 Re: Horsepower forum? [lexusguy] by domenickamarc

Nov 04, 2006 (9:57 pm)

Replying to: lexusguy (Nov 04, 2006 9:13 pm)
I'm not sure what your point is here. Talking about the power of BMW's 530i and Audi's A6 3.2 v the competition is very much on topic. I don't think "horses-per-dollar" was ever part of the discussion. All luxury performance sedans will score poorly by that matrix...they're luxury cars. You're paying for luxury after all, not just a big lump of iron with a lot of power.
 
Ironically, your last two sentences (in the excerpt I quoted) makes the point I was trying to make, but you said it more clearly.
 
Perhaps a misreading, but while I certainly agree that talking about the power of BMW's 530i and Audi's A6 3.2 v the competition is very much on topic, I did read the comparison of a 2000 A6 w/100,000 miles versus a Mazda CX-7 as veering off in the direction of "hp/$$" as a way to the address that topic. I didn't get any other point from simply noting that there are cheaper cars which offer more horsepower and torque than the typical German LPS, but maybe there is one.

#8677 of 10338 Re: Horsepower forum? [domenickamarc] by lexusguy

Nov 04, 2006 (10:00 pm)

Replying to: domenickamarc (Nov 04, 2006 9:57 pm)
I did read the comparison of a 2000 A6 w/100,000 miles versus a Mazda CX-7 as veering off in the direction of "hp/$$" as a way to the address that topic. I didn't get any other point from simply noting that their are cheaper cars which offer more horsepower and torque than the typical German LPS, but maybe there is one.
 
I read it as just a comparison of Japanese and German engine power, and not necessarily LPS vs. mainstream CUV. When I was talking about German vs Japanese engines a few posts back, I was including VW's 1.8T and 2.8, and 3.0s from Nissan, Honda, and Toyota, not just the LPS cars. I don't think the intention was to say that the CX-7 was a better "value" than the Audi, but I could be wrong.

#8679 of 10338 Re: What's up with the Germans and 255 (ish) HP? [markcincinnati] by 610looper

Nov 05, 2006 (1:48 am)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Nov 03, 2006 2:08 pm)
Nothing at all...the German horses will always be bigger than Japanese horses, hence the need for Acura, Infiniti, & Lex to have something to go after the Germans with since reliability really wasn't working...
 
For the power the Germans(BMW & MB) offered, they were always faster than their Japanese competitors, Audi had and still is has weight issues...They've come a long way, I still can't believe the 2.0t has more power than the old 2.8 v6..
 
I recall when the TL type-S coupe and 4dr arrived, they were supposed to "bring it" to the 3er....even with more power than the 3 then, it still didn't cut it.

#8680 of 10338 Re: What's up with the Germans and 255 (ish) HP? [610looper] by lexusguy

Nov 05, 2006 (8:34 am)

Replying to: 610looper (Nov 05, 2006 1:48 am)
I recall when the TL type-S coupe and 4dr arrived, they were supposed to "bring it" to the 3er....even with more power than the 3 then, it still didn't cut it.
 
Hardly. The TL and CL Type S cars had very sloppy handling, lousy brakes, bad interiors, and transmissions that liked to fail. Even the Volvo C70 coupe, which was based on the 850 sedan from around 1993, handled better than the CL Type-S. BMW had no threat from Japan until the G35 arrived in '03. The IS300, if it had been done correctly, could've been one.
 
I'm not sure that the "German horses are bigger" argument still holds up anymore. The 335i and IS350 are just about equal in 0-60 runs, and horsepower is basically the same. The LS430 is VERY fast for its 278hp, certainly faster than the 275hp S430.

#8681 of 10338 German versus Japanese/BMW 530xi versus M35x by domenickamarc

Nov 05, 2006 (10:33 am)

Lexusguy,
 
OK...I understand what you're drawing attention to: German versus Japanese engines.
 
A few thoughts (very subjective):
 
German "premium" brands don't specifically build for U.S. the way Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura do. In U.S. auto media comparison tests, there is much weight given to which car accelerates fastest in any similarly priced group. Japanese manufacturers, I believe, build to win those contests in the U.S. press -- and it works, here.
 
Internationally, on a scale of 1 to 10, BMW and Mercedes sell 10. Audi sells 8. It's then a long drop to Volvo and Lexus, which would (on a graph) be around 4. In the 2 to 3 range would be Cadillac, Acura, Lincoln, and Infiniti. For example, worldwide BMW sales rose by about 120,000 vehicles to 1,328,000 in 2005. Mercedes also was over one million. Audi's figure was 829,109.
 
Internationally, and (to Mercedes, BMW, and Audi, perhaps almost as important) at home in Germany, the German big-3 outsell foreign competitors in the LPS category, unlike the U.S. and Japan. They build the smooth, refined engines and drivetrains that keep their premium image alive and separated (in buyers' minds) from Japanese brands. So far, it works for them.
 
Whatever they're doing, it works on me. Viscerally, in response to the post about BMW 530xi versus Infiniti M35x, I don't experience the two cars as being in the same category. I think the G35 and M35 hit a mark (which I subjectively categorize as luxurious muscle cars) but don't (yet) enter what I'd call the Premium LPS realm, where "smooth and refined" meets "powerful and engaging". I found the G35 and M35 to be wicked fast and fun, but somewhat noisy, with rears that don't take bumps well, and engines that over-depend on low-geared transmissions to suck great amounts of gas in order to push cars to victory in 0 to 60 tests, while German brands put enormous effort into slowly evolving more power (with each engine generation) through sophisticated technology (such as Audi's FSI) that combines more power with better gas mileage and keeps the whole experience like "warp-speed" acceleration on the old Star Trek series, rather than a roller-coaster ride.
 
As I said, all very subjective ... but then that's what we're sharing with each other, our subjective and visceral takes on these wonderful cars.

#8682 of 10338 Re: German versus Japanese/BMW 530xi versus M35x [domenickamarc] by lexusguy

Nov 05, 2006 (1:09 pm)

Replying to: domenickamarc (Nov 05, 2006 10:33 am)
Internationally, and (to Mercedes, BMW, and Audi, perhaps almost as important) at home in Germany, the German big-3 outsell foreign competitors in the LPS category, unlike the U.S. and Japan.
 
I'm not sure what the LPS sales are in Japan, but here in the states BMW and Mercedes still have the lead by a largin margin in the LPS catgory, and they outsell Audi 3 or 4-to-1.
 
The M35's version of the VQ35 is last generation, so it only has VVT on the intake side. Still, its a very highly regarded engine, being on the Wards list 12 years running. The problem is there is only so much they can do with just 5-speeds. They are down one gear to just about everyone else (two gears to the E class), except the RL which is in the same boat and also has poor fuel economy.
 
I'm having a tough time finding the M35's ratios, as Infiniti annoyingly doesn't list them on their site. I think 5th gear is somewhere around 0.83:1, compared to 0.69:1 for the automatic 530xi in 6th. There's just no way the Infiniti can compete when it comes to highway fuel economy.

#8683 of 10338 Re: German versus Japanese/BMW 530xi versus M35x [lexusguy] by sfcharlie

Nov 05, 2006 (1:25 pm)

Replying to: lexusguy (Nov 05, 2006 1:09 pm)
Not sure if I made clear that by "unlike the U.S. and Japan" I meant that in the U.S. and Japan, LPS buyers don't buy cars made in their own country. They buy MB and BMW. In Germany, by contrast, all three home-grown premium brands are the best-selling LPS cars.
 
As for Audi, they are coming along ... The brand set a new record for vehicle sales in 2005 for the tenth year in succession: 829,109 vehicles were delivered to customers worldwide, an increase of 6.4 percent (2004: 779,441).
The largest individual export market is the USA with 83,066 units (77,917, up 6.6 percent), but that's still just 10% of Audi's volume. Audi sold 247,125 vehicles in Germany, 12,033 (5.1 percent) more than in 2004.
 
In Great Britain Audi sold 81,374 (up 4.5 percent) and China with 58,878 (up 9.6 percent).
 
The above-average growth of Audi in Western Europe led to the brand achieving a record market share of 4.2 percent in 2005.

#8684 of 10338 Re: German versus Japanese/BMW 530xi versus M35x [sfcharlie] by lexusguy

Nov 05, 2006 (2:08 pm)

Replying to: sfcharlie (Nov 05, 2006 1:25 pm)
Not sure if I made clear that by "unlike the U.S. and Japan" I meant that in the U.S. and Japan, LPS buyers don't buy cars made in their own country. They buy MB and BMW. In Germany, by contrast, all three home-grown premium brands are the best-selling LPS cars.
 
Ok, I gotcha now. Yes, that seems to be unique to the Europeans in that they are very loyal to their own brands. Ford and GM's Opel\Vauxhall brands have somewhat of a presence, but Chrysler, GM U.S. brands like Cadillac, and the Japanese are basically footnotes in Europe.

#8685 of 10338 Re: Horsepower forum? [lexusguy] by fonefixer

Nov 06, 2006 (5:39 pm)

Replying to: lexusguy (Nov 04, 2006 10:00 pm)
I only wanted to make the point that that Mazda has come out with an SUV type, similar in weight and engine specs to the A6, only they did it with a 4 cylinder.The Cx-7 could hardly be called a better "value" than the Audi, they are completely different cars. The gas consumption appears to be almost the same, given my Audi experience the last 6 years and the Mazda front and rear vented disc brakes seem superior.
 
I can't say my Audi ownership has been pleasant during my 100,000 mile "test-drive". Without the extended service plan, the repair expenses for this car would have approached $10,000 during the last 3 years.
 
Joining the local Audi club was also critical because I was alerted to an able independent Audi mechanic who made the franchised Audi dealer's non service plan covered charges look downright ridiculous.
 
My now extensive experience with the Audi brand has me convinced that these types of cars are solely lease material, you give them back after 3 years or so and move on to the next car.
 
An Audi driver should not have to work as hard as I did to keep this car running. I was very fortunate to have been able to sell the car privately for a fair price just after the service plan expired, before the next repair issue landed in my lap!

Messages Page 869 of 1035

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