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Luxury Performance Sedans

9978 messages,  Last post on Nov 02, 2009 at 1:30 PM

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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

#8613 of 9978 Re: VW and Audi [purplem46] by domenickamarc Oct 21, 2006 (7:30 pm)
Replying to: purplem46 (Oct 21, 2006 6:54 pm) Sheesh, if you have been watching them as a company, you may realize that VW has made statements with their wallets that most car companies only dream about. They have stakes in Uber car factories such as Porsche, among others. They invest in their primary brand the segment they wish to capture, in others they partake vicariously. In all, VW is making a killing.   I thought it was pretty clear (to me anyway) that the comment you quote and criticize was not speaking about VW as an entire company, but providing some figures and analysis specifically about the VW brand, within the larger VW company. You're talking about one thing (the whole VW company) and the last few comments about VW are talking about another (the VW brand line), unless you mean to imply that they're making so much money on their stakes in Porsche and Audi that they've decided to drain off some of the profits by mismanaging their original brand line
#8614 of 9978 Re: winter tires for Caddy STS [mnjasper] by markcincinnati Oct 21, 2006 (7:51 pm)
Replying to: mnjasper (Oct 20, 2006 7:14 am) Since you did not mention wheel size, I assume you want to use your stock wheels, year round.   Why do you think you can't find tires since the fronts and rears are different? You can buy two tires at the same time from virtually any retailer I can think of.   The Tirerack is very helpful -- here is what they might "suggest": minus zero sizing. For instance, they may suggest 235 x 50 x 18 tires if you tell them you want to keep 18" wheels (using the rears as an example.)   I found 4 WINTER tire brands/models in that size in about 45 seconds on Tirerack. And buying 2 was possible too.   You could opt for 4 winter tires of the same size, or you could minus zero the 235s you have too.   Here is what you may consider if you want status quo but with winter tires:   Matched tire sets for Cadillac STS V8 18 Inch O.E. Standard Wheels:   Front: 235/50-18 Rear: 255/45-18   Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22 (V rated) just under $900 for all four. Replies to this message: mnjasper (Oct 24, 2006 7:00 am) shipo (Oct 24, 2006 8:40 am) markcincinnati (Oct 24, 2006 9:08 am)
#8615 of 9978 How can VW or any German or European match the Japanese by 610looper Oct 21, 2006 (8:41 pm)
dollar for dollar in the U.S. when the Euro is worth more than the U.S. Dollar and Japanese Yen and make huge profits?   Any auto company can only lower the price so much before you mess with resale at the least and have soaring production/manufacturing costs to cover.   VW in the U.S. only has 4 vehicles that are more value priced for the income of the general pop., and even then they are still more expensive overall compared to however many the Japanese competition have vehicle for vehicle...i.e. Civic/Corolla to Jetta or Accord/Camry to Jetta/Passat. Until I see a high volume, high priced, high profit auto company, I'll say it will remain an oxymoron.   And who's lining up for a Beetle or expensive hatchback?   Now outside of the U.S. is a totally different ball game... Replies to this message: markcincinnati (Oct 22, 2006 7:16 am) lexusguy (Oct 22, 2006 7:52 am)
#8616 of 9978 Re: How can VW or any German or European match the Japanese [610looper] by markcincinnati Oct 22, 2006 (7:16 am)
Replying to: 610looper (Oct 21, 2006 8:41 pm) For some time the Japanese, despite the "advantage" you cite, didn't quite have the "driving pleasure" thing figured out.   Probably a lot of folks still think that no matter how high up the price ladder the Japanese cars go, they are kind of like that Hertz commercial "not qutie."   To me, Infiniti may be -- to keep the car rental analogy alive for another paragraph or two -- like Avis "we try harder."   The G and M cars are remarkably close to that taught, rides on rails German driving sensation. Some folks thinks they have cracked the code completely in fact.   Lexus, on the other hand, seems (to me) to not even try to emulate the German driving FEELING, rather Lexus seems to build cars of almost impossibly high reliability and some even think of German quality. Driving some of the cars from Lexus, on the other hand, is like driving the nicest sofa you've ever had seat time in/on.   Yet, Lexus cars continue to be thought of -- by most -- as members in good standing in the LPS class.   Acura -- hmmm, perhaps the Japanese Saab or Volvo? I dunno. The TL is a very nice piece, the new RDX, too seems to push a lot of the right buttons, but damn if the RL seems to have trouble "getting respect."   The Germans ride -- in the US -- and rest somewhat on their laurels. But, a back to back to back drive of a couple of Germans and a couple of Japanese cars will point out some differences.   At this stage of evolution, the cars are far more similar than dissimilar. Yet, subtle as the differences may be, there will be BMW bigots and Lexus bigots and even Cadillac bigots one would assume.   Perhaps "loyal fans" would be a more appropriate word than bigots.   My wife has been totally converted from Audi to BMW and after a weekend of test driving Japanese cars, Korean cars and made in America Japanese cars, she is convinced that the Japanese cars are SUPERIOR when sitting still and that the Germans (particularly BMW's) are SUPERIOR when you are driving them.   I suspect -- and the LPS sales numbers seem to support this -- that might be representative of a lot of folks opinions.   The RDX, for instance, has everything you could want in a modern car that mere mortals can afford. The comparable BMW, even for an additional $10,000 is, relatively, a "strippie." Then, when you drive them for perhaps longer than a typical test drive, the differences emerge.   From my perspective, the Japanese and somewhat even the Americans continue to nip at the heels of the German cars.   The differences are getting harder to cost justify, but still -- obviously -- can be justified (as the sales figures month after month, here in LPS land, demonstrate.)   The Germans do seem to be threatened -- but the competition seems to suit them, for they still make the cars people apparently WANT to DRIVE. Replies to this message: lexusguy (Oct 22, 2006 7:52 am)
#8617 of 9978 Re: How can VW or any German or European match the Japanese [markcincinnati by lexusguy Oct 22, 2006 (7:52 am)
Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 22, 2006 7:16 am) Acura -- hmmm, perhaps the Japanese Saab or Volvo? I dunno. The TL is a very nice piece, the new RDX, too seems to push a lot of the right buttons, but damn if the RL seems to have trouble "getting respect."   Whats funny about the TL is that even though it is often the whipping boy of the entry-sport class because of its drivetrain, it owns the segment in sales, at least in the US. BMW NA wishes they could move 3s like Acura moves TLs. If Acura gives it SH-AWD, and fixes the balance problems, (and that SUV-like turning circle) watch out. It already has the engine and 6-speed, all it needs is the drive wheels in the right place.   I think Acura's biggest threat to Germany right now is the new MDX. The RDX isn't bad, but there seems to be some misses with it that are hard to ignore, that god-awful fuel economy for one. A Hummer H3 does better than that.   The RL hasnt gotten "respect" since day one, 1996. The Legend was a great car. That RL was not. Acura needs to bring the Legend name back, and put it on an out-of-this-world car if they really want to break through that $40K glass ceiling. It needs a V8, a 6-speed, and its own dedicated platform. Otherwise they might as well stay home.   BMW should keep a careful eye on that '09 Infiniti FX. If they do it right, it should pose a more serious challenge to the X5 than the ML and Q5 will.
#8618 of 9978 Since we moved from prices to performance... by 610looper Oct 22, 2006 (11:08 am)
Does anyone know if there's a website that lists the average transaction prices of the number of vehicles sold per manufacturer? Including Lease, Finance, or cash purchase?   It doesn't matter how well the Japanese cars handle, they'll never be German, their cars just don't have that German car smell, feel. Japanese cars all drive the same and feel the same to a degree, from Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Toyota, Acura, etc, not that it's a bad thing, but it's not particularly great either. If the Germans were as reliable as the Japanese, would that make the Japanese cars obsolete? Should the Japanes car companies be worried? Replies to this message: markcincinnati (Oct 22, 2006 4:14 pm) 610looper (Oct 22, 2006 5:40 pm) lexusguy (Oct 22, 2006 9:35 pm) sfcharlie (Oct 25, 2006 3:03 pm) cdnpinhead (Oct 25, 2006 3:53 pm) and 1 more... lexusguy (Oct 25, 2006 8:45 pm) and 14 more...
#8619 of 9978 Re: Blaming CR versus blaming VW [domenickamarc] by anthonyp Oct 22, 2006 (2:11 pm)
Replying to: domenickamarc (Oct 20, 2006 11:01 am) I sure agree with you..A good use of the English language Tony
#8620 of 9978 Re: Since we moved from prices to performance... [610looper] by markcincinnati Oct 22, 2006 (4:14 pm)
Replying to: 610looper (Oct 22, 2006 11:08 am) Speaking as a German car fan, if not outright bigot, I would think the phrase, "never say never" springs to mind.   And saying Japanese cars all drive the same, while apparently your observation, is really not the case.   Drive a Lexus GS and an Infiniti M back to back -- insert an A6 SLine (6 or 8) or a 5 series or E class even in the test. Drive the exact same route over and over. The M is very close to the German feel.   Now smell is another matter. The smell of new BMWs and Audis is different. A new Mercedes always, to me, smells like that super duper leather scent you get a car wash.   The Japanese cars -- especially the Lexus -- seem to have taken a page out of the current Cadillac book (not that that is a bad thing.)   My Audi (2005) A6 if it were to be a representative of reliability from this point forward has been "the best ever." Those of you who know it is my 28th Audi will surely point out that it is relative to my previous experience which, I admit, was less than Lexus-like.   There must be folks who don't like the German driving feel -- Lexus couldn't exist otherwise, don't you think?   There are folks who riding or driving my German cars think they are stiff, harsh and "bumpy."   It takes all kinds.   Isn't the Camry near the top or at the top of sales?   The Camry, even the new ones, is hardly rewarding to drive. But, it is predictable.   I have both Honda and Toyota as clients -- they are keenly interested in quality and value. Driving pleasure, if it is in the top 10 reasons for being, must be below 5.   My Toyota client in Kentucky is on the verge of adding a third shift, just to keep up with demand.   The Japanese companies that I deal with don't even think about German cars as far as I can tell -- they seem much more concerned about the Koreans and other Japanese makers. German car companies NEVER come up, in fact.   They just are too small in a competitive sense to make a difference. Now, maybe if I had insight into Acura and Lexus, I would be seeing and hearing different data points.   The Honda guys are always busting on me for driving Audis, suggesting that I should consider Acuras instead.   The Toyota guys, believe it or not, seem to think America cars are actually better "values."   Of course the top guys all drive Lexus cars.   Probably perks, don't you think?     Replies to this message: 610looper (Oct 22, 2006 5:40 pm)
#8621 of 9978 One note.. by kyfdx HOST Oct 22, 2006 (4:54 pm)
Porsche owns 20% of VW.. not the other way around. Replies to this message: sfcharlie (Oct 22, 2006 5:30 pm)
#8622 of 9978 Re: One note.. [kyfdx] by sfcharlie Oct 22, 2006 (5:30 pm)
Replying to: kyfdx (Oct 22, 2006 4:54 pm) Pat, good catch.   The move by Porsche, last year, was thought, by some analysts, to have been forced by concerns that a European court might have been getting ready to overturn a law protecting VW from takeover.   As a major parts supplier, Volkswagen is obviously incredibly important to Porsche. Porsche doesn't want to see Volkswagen in new hands, and Porsche wants to buy the requisite 25.1 percent of Volkswagen stock to give it control.   Porsche shares the rest of the stock with Volkswagen and the Government of Lower Saxony. Once the approval of the takeover plan was granted, Porsche became legally allowed to purchase the remaining 3.5 percent needed to gain a controlling interest and stop worrying about a hostile takeover.

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