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Luxury Performance Sedans

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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

Messages Page 862 of 1034

#8609 of 10339 VW and Audi by sfcharlie

Oct 21, 2006 (3:33 pm)

"VW had the cars, but they went on a buying spree, decided they wanted a piece of the S class, and left them on the market for a decade."
 
Lexusguy, I agree. Former CEO Ferdinand Piech steered Volkswagen off course in the 1990s by trying to take the VW brand upmarket to challenge Mercedes. At the same time, as Business Week put it, "he took his eye off the company's core business in small cars, and failed to grapple with VW's growing productivity gap. With a domineering Piech sitting on the supervisory board, successor Bernd Pischetsrieder didn't dare do a U-turn, and many problems festered."
 
Volkswagen's started a further turn downward in 2001, but management has been slow to do anything. Now, despite the new models of the last two years, VW's promised rebound doesn't materialize.
 
The alleged coming turnaround remains a prediction that VW struggles to keep the PR fire under. At the beginning of the year Bernhard promised ten new models by 2010. Then, in July, he moved the target date up to 2008.
 
Nonetheless, last December, a report by Morgan Stanley warned of a pretax profit plunge of 41% in 2006.
 
Not sure how well VW is doing financially as the year comes to an end.
 
Meanwhile, Audi fights for its piece of the international LPS pie from a quasi-independent position within the VW empire. Audi performs strongly outside the U.S. According to Fortune Magazine: "Its brand is strong in Europe, where Audi's are seen as equals in image and performance to its better-known competitors and command similar prices. Audi has also moved aggressively overseas and has become the most popular luxury car in China. Overall, the company expects to sell 890,000 cars this year and is aiming for 1.4 million by 2015 - a position from which it might be able to claim luxury car leadership."
 
In the U.S., Fortune points out, "it takes more than good products to succeed. Audi's reputation for quality lags that of its competitors. 'You pay for your sins for a long time,' says Johan de Nysschen, the head of Audi of Americas. Quality is getting better but older ones remain a problem. Audi ranked well below average in the latest JD Power dependability study of 2003 model cars." Nonetheless, unlike VW, Fortune's prediction for Audi in the U.S. in optimistic: " Audi is making another push with several new models. It is introducing a small SUV, the Q5, a small coupe, the A5, and a $130,000 mid engine sports car, the R8, over the next year and a half . Its goal: to boost unit sales from 83,000 in 2005 to 100,000 in 2008. Assuming the economy holds up, its targets look reasonable. Both BMW and Mercedes sell more than twice that many vehicles here."
 
VW has to do something completely different.

#8610 of 10339 Re: VW and Audi [sfcharlie] by domenickamarc

Oct 21, 2006 (6:58 pm)

Replying to: sfcharlie (Oct 21, 2006 3:33 pm)
The Detroit News (about VW and Audi): "It's losing big money in the U.S.; bloated European workforce won't be easy to slash; could successful upscale Audi be sacrificed?"
 
According to investment banker Morgan Stanley's Adam Jonas, Audi as a stand-alone business is worth more than VW: "I value Audi at standalone at roughly 60 euros ($77). VW is roughly 54/55 euros ($69/71) now," said London-based Jonas." The "bloated" European workforce is a big reason (although not the only one) why VW can't match prices with Toyota and Honda. A recent article in a German newspaper, the Sueddeutsche Zeitung, cited VW sources saying that at least 40,000 of the 100,000 people employed in its parts and assembly plants were superfluous.
 
Another thing (about Audi), which a number of financial-auto analysts have said: Audi has to completely separate its U.S. dealerships from VW dealerships. I experienced the truth of that, first-hand, while shopping A4s a while back. An Audi Brand Specialist at an Audi/Porsche dealership responded to an off-hand comment, made one of the boys I had with me, about the Audi being sort of like his brother's Passat. The German-accented salesman said: "Only until you drive them." By contrast, a salesman at a VW/Audi dealership commented (when I mentioned that I might consider an A4 with 2.0 turbo for better-mpg commuting): "Waste of money. You'd be better off getting a Passat with the same engine -- more car for your money."

#8611 of 10339 Re: winter tires for Caddy STS [mnjasper] by purplem46

Oct 21, 2006 (7:48 pm)

Replying to: mnjasper (Oct 20, 2006 8:14 am)
The problem isn't in buying the same size tires, but in buying harder snow rubber. Go to www.tirerack.com. If you can't find it, ask. They are very helpful.

#8612 of 10339 Re: VW and Audi [sfcharlie] by purplem46

Oct 21, 2006 (7:54 pm)

Replying to: sfcharlie (Oct 21, 2006 3:33 pm)
RE: VW has to do something completely different.
 
Sheesh, if you have been watching them as a company, you may realize that VW has made statements with their wallets that most car companies only dream about. They have stakes in Uber car factories such as Porsche, among others. They invest in their primary brand the segment they wish to capture, in others they partake vicariously. In all, VW is making a killing.

#8613 of 10339 Re: VW and Audi [purplem46] by domenickamarc

Oct 21, 2006 (8:30 pm)

Replying to: purplem46 (Oct 21, 2006 7:54 pm)
Sheesh, if you have been watching them as a company, you may realize that VW has made statements with their wallets that most car companies only dream about. They have stakes in Uber car factories such as Porsche, among others. They invest in their primary brand the segment they wish to capture, in others they partake vicariously. In all, VW is making a killing.
 
I thought it was pretty clear (to me anyway) that the comment you quote and criticize was not speaking about VW as an entire company, but providing some figures and analysis specifically about the VW brand, within the larger VW company. You're talking about one thing (the whole VW company) and the last few comments about VW are talking about another (the VW brand line), unless you mean to imply that they're making so much money on their stakes in Porsche and Audi that they've decided to drain off some of the profits by mismanaging their original brand line

#8614 of 10339 Re: winter tires for Caddy STS [mnjasper] by markcincinnati

Oct 21, 2006 (8:51 pm)

Replying to: mnjasper (Oct 20, 2006 8:14 am)
Since you did not mention wheel size, I assume you want to use your stock wheels, year round.
 
Why do you think you can't find tires since the fronts and rears are different? You can buy two tires at the same time from virtually any retailer I can think of.
 
The Tirerack is very helpful -- here is what they might "suggest": minus zero sizing. For instance, they may suggest 235 x 50 x 18 tires if you tell them you want to keep 18" wheels (using the rears as an example.)
 
I found 4 WINTER tire brands/models in that size in about 45 seconds on Tirerack. And buying 2 was possible too.
 
You could opt for 4 winter tires of the same size, or you could minus zero the 235s you have too.
 
Here is what you may consider if you want status quo but with winter tires:
 
Matched tire sets for Cadillac STS V8 18 Inch O.E. Standard Wheels:
 
Front: 235/50-18
Rear: 255/45-18
 
Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22 (V rated) just under $900 for all four.

#8615 of 10339 How can VW or any German or European match the Japanese by 610looper

Oct 21, 2006 (9:41 pm)

dollar for dollar in the U.S. when the Euro is worth more than the U.S. Dollar and Japanese Yen and make huge profits?
 
Any auto company can only lower the price so much before you mess with resale at the least and have soaring production/manufacturing costs to cover.
 
VW in the U.S. only has 4 vehicles that are more value priced for the income of the general pop., and even then they are still more expensive overall compared to however many the Japanese competition have vehicle for vehicle...i.e. Civic/Corolla to Jetta or Accord/Camry to Jetta/Passat. Until I see a high volume, high priced, high profit auto company, I'll say it will remain an oxymoron.
 
And who's lining up for a Beetle or expensive hatchback?
 
Now outside of the U.S. is a totally different ball game...

#8616 of 10339 Re: How can VW or any German or European match the Japanese [610looper] by markcincinnati

Oct 22, 2006 (8:16 am)

Replying to: 610looper (Oct 21, 2006 9:41 pm)
For some time the Japanese, despite the "advantage" you cite, didn't quite have the "driving pleasure" thing figured out.
 
Probably a lot of folks still think that no matter how high up the price ladder the Japanese cars go, they are kind of like that Hertz commercial "not qutie."
 
To me, Infiniti may be -- to keep the car rental analogy alive for another paragraph or two -- like Avis "we try harder."
 
The G and M cars are remarkably close to that taught, rides on rails German driving sensation. Some folks thinks they have cracked the code completely in fact.
 
Lexus, on the other hand, seems (to me) to not even try to emulate the German driving FEELING, rather Lexus seems to build cars of almost impossibly high reliability and some even think of German quality. Driving some of the cars from Lexus, on the other hand, is like driving the nicest sofa you've ever had seat time in/on.
 
Yet, Lexus cars continue to be thought of -- by most -- as members in good standing in the LPS class.
 
Acura -- hmmm, perhaps the Japanese Saab or Volvo? I dunno. The TL is a very nice piece, the new RDX, too seems to push a lot of the right buttons, but damn if the RL seems to have trouble "getting respect."
 
The Germans ride -- in the US -- and rest somewhat on their laurels. But, a back to back to back drive of a couple of Germans and a couple of Japanese cars will point out some differences.
 
At this stage of evolution, the cars are far more similar than dissimilar. Yet, subtle as the differences may be, there will be BMW bigots and Lexus bigots and even Cadillac bigots one would assume.
 
Perhaps "loyal fans" would be a more appropriate word than bigots.
 
My wife has been totally converted from Audi to BMW and after a weekend of test driving Japanese cars, Korean cars and made in America Japanese cars, she is convinced that the Japanese cars are SUPERIOR when sitting still and that the Germans (particularly BMW's) are SUPERIOR when you are driving them.
 
I suspect -- and the LPS sales numbers seem to support this -- that might be representative of a lot of folks opinions.
 
The RDX, for instance, has everything you could want in a modern car that mere mortals can afford. The comparable BMW, even for an additional $10,000 is, relatively, a "strippie." Then, when you drive them for perhaps longer than a typical test drive, the differences emerge.
 
From my perspective, the Japanese and somewhat even the Americans continue to nip at the heels of the German cars.
 
The differences are getting harder to cost justify, but still -- obviously -- can be justified (as the sales figures month after month, here in LPS land, demonstrate.)
 
The Germans do seem to be threatened -- but the competition seems to suit them, for they still make the cars people apparently WANT to DRIVE.

#8617 of 10339 Re: How can VW or any German or European match the Japanese [markcincinnati by lexusguy

Oct 22, 2006 (8:52 am)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 22, 2006 8:16 am)
Acura -- hmmm, perhaps the Japanese Saab or Volvo? I dunno. The TL is a very nice piece, the new RDX, too seems to push a lot of the right buttons, but damn if the RL seems to have trouble "getting respect."
 
Whats funny about the TL is that even though it is often the whipping boy of the entry-sport class because of its drivetrain, it owns the segment in sales, at least in the US. BMW NA wishes they could move 3s like Acura moves TLs. If Acura gives it SH-AWD, and fixes the balance problems, (and that SUV-like turning circle) watch out. It already has the engine and 6-speed, all it needs is the drive wheels in the right place.
 
I think Acura's biggest threat to Germany right now is the new MDX. The RDX isn't bad, but there seems to be some misses with it that are hard to ignore, that god-awful fuel economy for one. A Hummer H3 does better than that.
 
The RL hasnt gotten "respect" since day one, 1996. The Legend was a great car. That RL was not. Acura needs to bring the Legend name back, and put it on an out-of-this-world car if they really want to break through that $40K glass ceiling. It needs a V8, a 6-speed, and its own dedicated platform. Otherwise they might as well stay home.
 
BMW should keep a careful eye on that '09 Infiniti FX. If they do it right, it should pose a more serious challenge to the X5 than the ML and Q5 will.

#8618 of 10339 Since we moved from prices to performance... by 610looper

Oct 22, 2006 (12:08 pm)

Does anyone know if there's a website that lists the average transaction prices of the number of vehicles sold per manufacturer? Including Lease, Finance, or cash purchase?
 
It doesn't matter how well the Japanese cars handle, they'll never be German, their cars just don't have that German car smell, feel. Japanese cars all drive the same and feel the same to a degree, from Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Toyota, Acura, etc, not that it's a bad thing, but it's not particularly great either. If the Germans were as reliable as the Japanese, would that make the Japanese cars obsolete? Should the Japanes car companies be worried?

Messages Page 862 of 1034

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