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Sedans Luxury Performance Sedans
9644 messages, Last post on Jul 07, 2008 at 8:44 AM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
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Replying to: pat (Oct 07, 2006 6:43 am) You win the cupie doll, Pat! Here in Cincinnati, the new generation of BMW's with that spanky new "35" twin turbo engine are rolling out -- at this point, the 335 sedan and coupes are RWD, but already the 328 is offered with AWD and next year the X drive option will be added for about $1900. It promises to be a brisk seller. Almost all, certainly, will be automatics. Try finding a stick to test drive. The 7 series (upcoming gen) too will be offered with AWD. Mercedes 4Matics are exclusively automatics. Some of the Audis can still be had with AWD, sport packages (that actually do change the suspension settings) AND stick shifts. But when the S4 sitting on the showroom floor is just as likely to be an auto as a stick, well, even that is indicative of American's (primarily) unwillingness to "eat beets" (or fill in the blank.) A friend of mine went to the salad bar at Ruby's one day and they had just put out a fresh container of small round beets. I said, "wow, fresh beets on my salad will be deelish." My friend said, "yeccchhh! beets." I said, "I didn't know you hated beets so much." He replied, "they're terrible, I've never had one, but I just know they're nasty tasting." Whattya gonna do? My current phrase -- and more than a phrase it is a LAMENT -- is, "good is the enemy of great." To me, even though I am starting to actually believe the automatic COULD be superior to the manual, there is one thing the stick does better FOR SURE: it INCREASES driving pleasure. I am now somewhat at odds with Shipo in that I do see "the case" for the argument that the auto equipped BMW's will permit, allow and encourage better, improved, & MORE control, performance and safety. Yet, I still think stick shifts are more involving and fun than ANY automatic. I have been a screaming voice in the wilderness for a long time. I saw Audis go from 90% stick to 75% stick to 50% stick to 90% auto over a period of time commencing in 1976 through today. My favorite car of all time was a 1995 S6. But, the best car I have ever had is my current all optioned 2005 A6 3.2. If I could have ONLY one of these two cars and could pick from the two of them, I would, for features and safety reasons pick my current car. Hands down, however, the S6 was more fun -- and I'll have to nominate the stick shift that it came with as the main contributor to that. Here's a list of [our] cars -- most of them sticks: 1978 Audi 5000 1979 Audi Fox GTI 1982 4000 (with: funny upshift indicator on the dashboard) 1984 4000S 1984 Coupe 1986 4000CS quattro (with the juiced up 5 cylinder engine) 1986 Coupe (king of the hill) 1987 5000CS turbo quattro 1988 80 quattro sport 1988 BMW 325ix (all wheel drive) 1990 100 (automatic) 1990 Coupe (with the 20V 5 cylinder engine) 1991 100 quattro 1992 100S 1993 100S (pearl white) 1993 90S quattro 1994 90S quattro sport 1995 S6 (what a blast to drive this "emerald green pearl with white leather sport seats" and the cool factory phone beauty) 1996 A4 2.8 1998 A4 2.8 (190 HP) 1997 A8 4.2 w/S8 suspension upgrade (auto, of course) 1999 A6 2.8 quattro (automatic) 2000 TT quattro 180 2000 A6 4.2 (automatic) 2001 A6 4.2 sport (ditto) 2001 TT 225 2003 allroad 2.7T (6 speed to be clear) 2003 TT 225 2005 A6 3.2 (automatic) 2005 BMW X3 3.0 (stick shift) =========== Twenty eight Audis in all. Two BMW's. =========== I am pretty certain we have had our last stick shift. If you can find an upcoming BMW 5X with a stick -- and you are so inclined to "eat beets" -- you'd better buy it, cause it is a dying breed, or perhaps it is already extinct and no one bothered to tell it yet.
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 07, 2006 9:56 am) 
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 06, 2006 12:01 pm) Actually, according to Porsche, the tip-auto 911 Turbo will outrun the stick to 60. The reason being that with the auto, you can brake-torque to 3,000rpm, spooling up the turbos before launch. The stick will not survive clutch drops at similar rpms.
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Oct 07, 2006 9:56 am) But when I got there and freaked out because it had that third pedal, the dealer said no problem and took me out to teach me how to drive it. I got about ten minutes in rush hour traffic on a six-lane divided highway, and then he said bye bye and I took off for PA. The car I drove back was another (5000s) stick, too, but by then it didn't matter. I was hooked. All my cars since then have been 5 speeds--two Celicas, an ES 300, and my 530i spt. I am firmly in Shipo's camp--if it doesn't have a stick, I won't even consider it. I rode in my friend's 545 and listened to him rave about the paddle shifters, but after watching him play with them for five minutes or so, I was bored. It's like watching a movie of a bike ride along some gorgeous trail somewhere while you pedal on a stationary bike. What's the point? Just give me the real thing. Then there's rocking out of a slippery spot. Can even the new-improved-nothing-like-their-predecessors automatics equal a stick when it comes to that? I won't even mention that the more moving parts there are the more likely something will break. |
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Replying to: designman (Oct 07, 2006 7:13 am) Those are reassuring stats. Or maybe not? I think BMW and Audi may find your stats very interesting and only offer their sticks to buyers who are willing to open their wallets a bit further for manual versions of M Series and Audi S and RS models. The plain vanilla BMWs and Audis will soon be offered solely with two pedals. If a person wants a stick then BMW and Audi will graciously offer that person a M series or RS for a mere $20k to $30K more. Oh yeah I know the M series and S/RS models are far better in every sense of the word and worth that price over their more plain siblings. You are not only paying for the stick you are also paying for improved performance and handling dynamics . Unfortunatley in that case driving a car with a stick will become far more elitist while the common man will just have to live the rest of his life with automatics. A sad fate indeed for most of mankind(especially the portion that loves sticks) 
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Replying to: lexusguy (Oct 07, 2006 10:50 am) Is it all about getting to the finish line fastest? Did not Schumacher himself say how much he prefers driving manual cars? Does not the added concentration involved with a third pedal and the "feeling of being one with the road" count for anything? Is it possible for humans to enjoy chess with the knowledge that a IBM supercomputer will beat the greatest chess master in the world? Ofcourse it is. Similarily does the enjoyment of driving manual become pointless because cars with auto trannies can outrace cars with manual trannies? Ofcourse not. There is definitely a lot to be said about shifting your own gears. If you've never done it before then you will never understand what I mean.
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 07, 2006 2:44 pm) I've "rowed my own" in plenty of cars. Probably the most notable was my first British sports car, my '62 Austin Healey 3000. It had a double-clutch four-speed manual with a dash mounted switch for OD in 3rd and 4th. Definitely the most unforgiving transmission I've ever used. You either do it the way it wants, or you walk, literally. There was definitely satisfaction in hammering home the 3rd > 2nd downshift in that car, as nobody else could do it the first time unless they were a Healey driver. I definitely would not have bought the car though if it was going to be a daily driver. I still think driving a stick is fun, but with traffic the way it is now rather than 30 years ago, I just don't think the positives of owning a MT car would outweigh the negatives. Just MO. On the other hand, I think SMGs (especially Audi's) rock. If you don't feel like shifting for yourself, you dont have to. With a MT, your SOL. |
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This puts me in the minority here, I've learned. I choose to shift my own gears. That puts me into a miniscule fraction of that minority. Oh, and I demand rear-wheel drive. BMW, G35, CTS & the C230 still offer me what I want. The fact that I choose to own my vehicle, regardless of warranty, means I care how much things cost to fix. Manuals rarely break, & when they do, they cost less to fix. Yeah, I know, who cares? Plus which, I can skip gears, engage the clutch slowly or not so slowly, or not at all, given the situation (which may not be what it was 0.5 seconds earlier). It's clear 3-7 of you understand what I'm saying & the rest couldn't care less. When BMW & Nissan stop selling manuals, I guess I'll go back to Miatas, or something else -- I'll give up the luxury long before I'll give up the sport. For me, this is the ultimate deal-breaker. I bought the car I've got only because it came with a manual. Bad example (they quit making the whole thing, manual or otherwise) I realize, but I guess I can look forward to saving money if the only cars that come with manuals in the future are cheaper ones. My next car will probably be a BMW 3-series, within the next year or two. It'll have a manual. After that, we'll see. The present car will turn 100K miles this week & it certainly hasn't been a maintenance nightmare. The next one won't be either, because it'll have only the minimum of options & a manual. KISS. |
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 07, 2006 2:23 pm) Now if you really want to read something hilarious about MTs check this out and try not to get depressed. This is really funny: Death to The Stick Shift Rage, rage against the dying of the light! 
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Out of all the posters here, whether you use standard shift or some amalgam of auto shift: Who actually runs there cars on the track? Who has run their respective cars to the limits with sweaty palms? I'm interested in hearing from the hard core of the group. No offense to the family car group, but I'd like to hear opinions from those who really like to drive?
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