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Sedans Luxury Performance Sedans
10006 messages, Last post on Nov 26, 2009 at 6:59 AM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
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Replying to: dewey (Sep 24, 2006 2:08 pm) Note that the M also won the C&D "Gotta have it" category, which is the closest category they have to " most desired car, independent of price." The interesting thing IMO, is that the M wins, despite the fact these reviews tend to ignore two very important areas almost entirely. 1) Reliability. Look at consumer reports reliability surveys where the M far outshines the BMW and M-B. Also look at the Consumer reports Owner Satisfaction Survey, where the M wins with 92% of owners who would buy again, as compared to about 70% of 5-Series owners, and 62% of E-Series owners. Seems to me these are very big issues when it comes to overall value, yet not even considered in the C&D review. Don't you feel kind of foolish every time you have to bring this very high priced car into the shop. I know I do with my M-B. 2) Navigation and other electronics. As a serious user of Navigation (and a successfully retired software developer), I feel pretty clear about the fact that the M's navigation (including a wonderful voice command for destination street addresses) completely blows away the BMW and M-B systems, in so many ways. These reviews place far less weight on these systems than than their actual effect on most potential owners. (C&D IS an enthusiast rag after all. However PC magazine, Popular Mechanics and others also give the M luxury car of the year, coming from a very strong technology perspective) Look at the M's incredibly bright rear view monitor (even in the black of night) The lines showing your car's path, as you turn that steering wheel, are a total pleasure in every parking experience and every time you're in reverse. Again, given very short shrift in these reviews. If you look at the total package: The "Gotta Have It" quality, reliability, great electronics, a fantastic performer and a great handling car to boot, it's hard to see how the M wouldn't be a much bigger winner, or how the BMW can be the better valued car. My plan, before I bought my M, was to find the best car I could for less than $110K. I got the M not because it was the best car for the money, but because, from my perspective, it was the best car period. I'd really have preferred to pay more if meant getting a better car and getting some more prestige along with it. In the end, I had to go with what I thought was the best car, and after more than a year, I haven't been disappointed. But to each their own. Pete |
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Replying to: jrock65 (Sep 24, 2006 7:31 am) 2. BMW 550i Sport 3. Mercedes-Benz E550 4. Lexus GS450h " Were they all automatics? Since the M & E550 only come that way, I hope the BMW was also equipped with theirs... Thanks, - Ray Also not yet received my copy of C+D.... |
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Got this elsewhere. Consumer Reports annual owner satisfaction survey (April 2006) asks OWNERS to rate their satisfaction with their own cars. The question they ask for this survey, as always, is: "Would you buy this car again?" The Survey lists the following cars (Shown next to the percentage of owners who would buy it again.) * 92% - Infiniti M35/M45 * 89% - Lexus GS300/GS430 * 89% - Lexus LS430 * 80% - Audi A6 sedan (V6) * 78% - Acura RL * 75% - Jaguar XJ Series * 75% - Audi A8 * 72% - BMW 5 Series (V8) * 70% - Lincoln Town Car * 69% - BMW 5 Series (6-cyl.) * 67% - Cadillac STS * 64% - BMW 7 Series * 63% - Jaguar S-Type * 62% - Mercedes-Benz E-Class |
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Replying to: jrock65 (Sep 24, 2006 7:31 am) On a more serious note, I wish they would have tested the V6 varieties. Most people actually buy these than the V8s. The M35 probably would have come out on top as it is very near the M45 in performance. The 525/530 not so close to the 550, the GS350 is close to the GS450h. Went to the Taste of Lexus event yesterday. Test drove the IS350, GS450h, LS460, S550, and 750 on a road course. Pretty good experience. Curiously no special instructions were given to us prior to blast off except for the 750 where they explained to all drivers how to shift and adjust the seats. You mean BMW controls are not intuitive?
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Replying to: drtravel (Sep 25, 2006 10:03 am)  I agree the 6 cylinders are probably the most commonly sold, but LPS's, as described here, refer to the performance side, so the V8's are probably the item of choice for folks in this crowd, if possible. The 5, like the 3, has long been considered a benchmark in their class. While I would like to see the 5 on top, I'm just as happy to see other car makers making such high calibre rides. We all win with vehicle choices like this. I'd take any of the cars in the comparo and be happy with them. I'm more into the LPC's (Luxury Perfomance Coupes). -Paul
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Replying to: erickpl (Sep 25, 2006 10:57 am) That's a very fair statement. (Your message was a reply to drtravel, but I suspect it may have been intended for me, given my previous message.) I also believe that it's possible for BMW and Infiniti fans to be both passionate AND honest. Pete
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Replying to: pete_l_p (Sep 25, 2006 11:08 am) ksso
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Replying to: ksoman (Sep 25, 2006 11:32 am) In one sense you're agreeing with my sentiments, and in another you're disagreeing. In either case, your statement comes across as being very honest. Thanks Pete |
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Replying to: pete_l_p (Sep 24, 2006 6:27 pm) Pete: I think your comment points to some important variations among car buyers. About 8 or 9 years ago I chose a European family sedan over the Toyota Camry. It's likely that I made a few more trips to the dealer's service dept. I have friends who would have said to themselves "You should have known better," but that wasn't what I thought or how I felt because I had driven both cars and experienced so much more driving and aesthetic pleasure in the car I chose. I have felt foolish when I've bought a car and found myself not enjoying looking at it and driving it over the years of ownership or, in other words, when the excitement I felt during shopping and test-driving wore out more quickly than I ever would have predicted. Your personal experience sounds ideal, the one we'd all like, where everything you read about a car and your own experience of the various buying options you have all point to the same choice. When I was choosing a car recently, I also read the startling figure of 92% of M owners telling CR they'd buy one again. Since I was also considering the Audi A6, and 8 of 10 (as opposed to 9 of 10 for the M) owners said they'd buy that again, I wasn't swayed by the disparity. Also, I read in one posting on this forum that the CR survey had been done during the first couple of months the M was on sale, and I went back and checked and that was, in fact, true -- the M went on sale February/March 2005 and the survey was conducted in the couple of months right after that. So, I was even less swayed that 9 of 10 people who had bought a car were still infatuated with it after a month or two. What did catch my attention was that, in reading the Edmunds LPS, Lexus, MB, Audi, and Infiniti forums, there were only 4 times I read someone say, virtually, that they really no longer liked an LPS they had bought within the prior year, sometimes within the prior few months -- and all four cases were M owners. I have no idea what to make of that but, emotionally, it stuck in my mind more than the CR "I'd buy it again" numbers. In the end, however, I tried to limit the extent to which I was being pushed by either kind of data. Partly I do that because I work in a field where statistics are heavily depended upon. As a result, I'm often struck by how the whole auto journalism industry tries to use numbers, as if their numbers ("on a scale of 1 to 20, rate the wow! Factor of this car" or "on a scale of 1 to 10, how much did driving this car for a day make you want to own it?") were like real experimental scientific data, when actually it's more like movie critics being asked to rate a film's plot and characterization and humor on scales of 1 to 10. Similarly, this weekend Barron's focused on luxury cars. Among their "statistical" tables was one about "how many owners predicted they would buy another car from the manufacturer of the one they currently drive?" and no brand was listed as having achieved even 50% customer loyalty. In any field of study that actually counted on such numbers being "real", somebody would have pointed out that this varied wildly from data reported from another widely cited source (CR), but that wasn't mentioned at all by Barrons. And CR won't care that Barrons' claims were way off from its claims. Same as for the auto mags. While I am addicted to them and love to vicariously drive every available car through the experiences of the auto journalists, I read them the way I read movie or theater reviews. They hardly ever all like the same movie the best. For example, Automobile Magazine compared Acura RL, Audi A6 4.2, BMW 545i, Cadillac STS, Infiniti M45, Jaguar S-type, Lexus GS430, and Mercedes-Benz E500 in 2005. They liked the M45: "The Infiniti M45 takes all the classic BMW attributes and amplifies them. The body is in-credibly stiff, the engine is incredibly powerful, the suspension is incredibly damped, and the brakes heat up and grab incredibly swiftly. The car delivers great test numbers, but it makes you feel uncomfortable, especially the steering, which becomes very light once you turn into a corner. Sherman says, "It feels like a case of premature removal from the development oven." But they liked the Audi A6 4.2 the best: "The A6 delivers such extraordinary satisfaction in every aspect of driving that we find it irresistible. Gillies says, 'It is both beautiful and bang up-to-date, proving that being at the cutting edge doesn't mean missing the mark. It feels bored at 80 mph and doesn't break a sweat at 100 mph.' Johnson notes, 'It isn't a superstar in any single category, but it possesses such a high level of excellence in all areas that it deserves the gold medal.' Sherman says simply, 'I would happily live with it.' The Audi A6 delivers a premium experience, and it marks you as a driver who appreciates both great design and great driving." Should you care? I don't think so. As I said, you report such a harmonic convergence of visceral and reading-research confirmation of the fit between you and that car, it's hard to imagine anyone figuring you'd be happier with their car. Keep enjoying. Domenick
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Replying to: domenickamarc (Sep 25, 2006 12:28 pm) Look around some more and you'll find many customers of all LPS brands on these boards who regretted their decision. Especially check out when a new model design came out. (You really couldn't find any unhappy MB owners?) It may well be that Infiniti and Lexus buyers have much higher quality expectations than the German car buyers. I've noticed this during my visits to the BMW, Infiniti, Lexus and MB service departments. (Yes, I've been fortunate enough to own all four brands) You just have to take many posts that complain about how bad something is with a little grain of salt. Ulterior motives?
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