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Luxury Performance Sedans

10339 messages,  Last post on May 30, 2013 at 3:26 PM

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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

Messages Page 818 of 1035

#8163 of 10339 Re: I still [houdini1] by shipo

Aug 22, 2006 (8:43 pm)

Replying to: houdini1 (Aug 22, 2006 7:56 pm)
Ummm, what the heck does a depreciation scale have to do with anything? The only value that means anything is the residual percentage of MSRP of any given car after a certain number of years and miles.
 
Looking at this from a different perspective; I leased a 2002 530i in April of 2002 with an MSRP of almost exactly $48,000. Even though I negotiated a ~$42,000 deal (via the ED program), the residual was still calculated to be 60% of the MSRP meaning $28,800. Had my residual been calculated based upon "the deal", it would have been $25,200, WAY below the street value of that car after three years.
 
To make this more interesting, my car resold last year from my local dealership and they got $36,000 for a three year old car. That equates to a retained value of 75% based on the MSRP, however, if we were to base it upon "the deal" once again, my car would have retained a whopping 85.7% of its original value. Not realistic and not true.
 
For any retained value calculation to be at all meaningful, it has to have a stable starting point, and that means MSRP.
 
Having said all of that, from the perspective of the IRS when you are depreciating a car for tax purposes, "the deal" is the actual starting point, however, those numbers mean nothing to anybody but the IRS and are not valid for comparison purposes.
 
Like it or not, a 2005 Chrysler 300C AWD retains its value far better than a 2005 Acura RL.
 
Best Regards,
Shipo

#8164 of 10339 Re: I still [markcincinnati] by lexusguy

Aug 22, 2006 (10:17 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Aug 22, 2006 12:57 pm)
Is the Acura's suspension simply not up to the task? I mean, Audis, for years, have generally received decent to glowing reviews for handling.
  
You'd think the Acura engineers could figure out a way to at least improve things over what seems to be the feeling here
 
I think that is the case, yes. The Legend, despite being FWD, was a genuinely fun car to drive. When it became the RL, all the fun was gone in favor of a cushy, wallowy "poor man's LS". The rest of the line up also evolved into bland Honda clones. Acura has obviously tried to make the new car more involving than the outgoing RL, but they definitely could've gone much farther.
 
Also, Audi has many years more experience using their AWD systems and tuning their suspensions to compensate for the nose heaviness, so there's a definite advantage there.

#8165 of 10339 Re: I still [exalteddragon1] by lexusguy

Aug 22, 2006 (10:20 pm)

Replying to: exalteddragon1 (Aug 22, 2006 1:20 pm)
I dunno about Ford, but i read that GM's average resale value is at 47% or something since they stopped the incentive war. Does anyone know what the real world residual on an STS is right about now?
 
Acura's average is probably also very good. The TL and MDX which represent the majority of their sales both hold their value very well. The STS on the other hand can't be too great. They are selling way under MSRP, and Cadillac has a 100+ day supply. Combine this with airport fleet sales...

#8166 of 10339 Re: I still [houdini1] by lexusguy

Aug 22, 2006 (10:26 pm)

Replying to: houdini1 (Aug 22, 2006 3:04 pm)
LG, do you know of a comprehensive list that would compare depreciation of different autos? Based on a selling price of $41,000 I can't think of any domestics that would match the RL for depreciation.
 
Are we talking just luxury brands here? Even so, I'm sure plenty of Lincoln models are worse than the Acura. Resale on the SRX, STS, and DTS has also been less than stellar. If we're including volume cars, the Sebring is worth about 89 cents the second its driven off the lot.
 
Nobody can match Jaguar, though, which depending on how you look at it, is sort of a domestic brand. Two year old XJs have lost the selling price of an RL in depreciation.

#8167 of 10339 Re: I still [cstiles] by lexusguy

Aug 22, 2006 (10:33 pm)

Replying to: cstiles (Aug 22, 2006 3:29 pm)
The car has had more quality issues, IMO, due primarily to the unique "geek factor" that many owners can't relate to. People on this Edmunds board are unique....we actually THINK about cars. Most luxo-owners use 10% of their brains thinking about their cars, and the RL is not made for them.
 
The quality issues may have something to do with the RL's poor sales. I think that Acura buyers, like Lexus buyers, are much more likely to be concerned about things like CR data than Benz, BMW, or Audi buyers. The RL has not done well in CR surveys, and C&D's long term RL tester was riddled with electrical issues and was constantly at the dealer for service. If a Japanese car isn't reliable, it has very little going for it.

#8168 of 10339 Re: I still [lexusguy] by houdini1

Aug 23, 2006 (6:06 am)

Replying to: lexusguy (Aug 22, 2006 10:26 pm)
Maybe you misread my post. I think the RL is better from a depreciation standpoint than most any domestic, not worse.
 
Kelly Blue Book says, "The 2006 RL is expected to have a higher than average residual value after 5 years. Less than the M35 but higher than the Audi A6 and the Cadillac STS". This is hardly the worst in class.

#8169 of 10339 Re: I still [cstiles] by tayl0rd

Aug 23, 2006 (6:31 am)

Replying to: cstiles (Aug 22, 2006 3:29 pm)
Here's your change: $.01
 
...the RL is a fine car but suffers from the following issues...
 
1. Acura's lesser brand cache with high end customers. The RL is the first technologically advanced car in Acura's history. Earlier Legends/RLs were decent, bloated versions of the Accord. Acura may have been first, but Lexus cruised ahead. Consequently, Acura attracted an older, less discriminating customer. The RL did not appeal enough to Acura's existing customer base, and also could not conquer customers in the Lexus, BMW, or Audi folds.
 
Wasn't the current TL "technologically advanced" when it was released? This RL is still considered to be a bloated, gadget-laden Accord. I've never seen an "old" person driving an Acura. Lexus is the brand that has attracted older, less discriminating folks. That fact is argued on these boards daily. Acura has always gone after the younger, more "performance" oriented consumer. The RL simply didn't offer enough against its competition; then add in the fact that some dealers/salesmen were actually saying that the RL was a competitor to the 7-series and S-class. (It was actually said to me at an Acura dealership. I nearly laughed in his face!)
 
2. ... I believe Infiniti/Nissan has better appealed to African American consumers than has Acura/Honda. If you could get a demographic breakdown somehow, I believe more minorities have chosen Infinitis. Jaguar had this going for them for a while, but eventually facts rule out over brand image.
 
Huh?? What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? When you think about it, that has zero logic to it whatsoever. For one, how many minorities are going to have the stash to pay for an M, lease or not? Even if that nonsense had just a little bit of truth to it, that would mean that almost nobody likes Acuras. If Acuras appeal more to Whites (which is what I'm guessing you're alluding to), why aren't the RL's sales where the M's sales are and vice versa? I'm sensing a bit of elitism skating near biggotry in your statements there so I won't go further with this one.
 
3. I believe a higher percentage of M's are leased, while a higher percentage of RLs are purchased. No facts, just a hunch.
 
See my last statement above. But this "hunch" of yours would put the M right along with Es, 5s, and A6s. What's your point? Besides, since you can get an RL so cheap, why not buy it? And hasn't Acura had crappy lease deals on the RL?
 
4. The RL has 2 distinct shortcomings....small backseat and tire noise. The high rpm VTEC powerplant is also not what most luxo-customers seek. FWD architecture is a bit overstated, but is a factor, at least in terms of cache.
 
Make that five. Small trunk, nondescript exterior styling, and slim-to-no factory options.
 
5. Acura has not marketed this car very aggressively, in fact, has chosen to sell it quietly. Lease deals have not been stellar and dealers have been content to sit back, since they can bank on TL, TSX, and MDX sales. Infiniti dealers need the M to sell to survive, since they don't have Acura's complementing high volume models.
 
Agreed to a point. Don't all companies "need" their products to sell to survive?? I guess you've forgotten or ignored how well Infiniti's G and FX vehicles are selling.
 
6. The car has had more quality issues, IMO, due primarily to the unique "geek factor" that many owners can't relate to. People on this Edmunds board are unique....we actually THINK about cars. Most luxo-owners use 10% of their brains thinking about their cars, and the RL is not made for them.
 
What does the "geek factor" have to do with the quality? Either it works or it doesn't. How well the owner can relate to it is irrelevant. "Thinking" about the cars is also irrelevant. The 5-series with its controversial i-drive outsells the RL by leaps and bounds. And it has been said so many times that the RL's telemetrics are much easier to navigate than i-drive. So why isn't the RL outselling the 5?

#8170 of 10339 Re: I still [tayl0rd] by lexusguy

Aug 23, 2006 (7:26 am)

Replying to: tayl0rd (Aug 23, 2006 6:31 am)
Agreed to a point. Don't all companies "need" their products to sell to survive?? I guess you've forgotten or ignored how well Infiniti's G and FX vehicles are selling.
 
The G and FX do pretty well, but Infiniti still depends much more on M sales than Acura does on RL sales, 25% of Infinitis sold are Ms, vs. about 5% for the RL.
 
What does the "geek factor" have to do with the quality? Either it works or it doesn't. How well the owner can relate to it is irrelevant. "Thinking" about the cars is also irrelevant. The 5-series with its controversial i-drive outsells the RL by leaps and bounds. And it has been said so many times that the RL's telemetrics are much easier to navigate than i-drive. So why isn't the RL outselling the 5?
 
I agree on that one. Its not that RL owners don't "get" their cars, its that their cars are prone to electrical failures and are frequent service department guests.

#8171 of 10339 Re: I still [lexusguy] by tayl0rd

Aug 23, 2006 (7:41 am)

Replying to: lexusguy (Aug 23, 2006 7:26 am)
I still have to disagree that Infiniti "needs" the M sales to survive. Don't forget that the G pretty much singlehandedly pulled Infiniti from the brink (actually, the FM platform pulled Nissan as a whole away from the tunnel of light). They were doing alright before this M. Its sales are mostly icing on the cake. The only things Infiniti is missing now are a proper flagship and a halo car(s). Some NISMO Gs and Ms would be grand, but that's a whole other subject.

#8172 of 10339 Re: I still [tayl0rd] by markcincinnati

Aug 23, 2006 (8:00 am)

Replying to: tayl0rd (Aug 23, 2006 6:31 am)
As a card carrying geek (or at least a member of older-geeks-USA), the Acura has very little geek appeal from what I can see.
 
My friends, my non-Audi, but often BMW driving/owning friends have, for years, called Audis the "technofile's" car (which is pretty close to geek.)
 
This WAS because the Audi cockpits had full gauges, all wheel drive, knobs and push and pull buttons/levers and the word quattro spelled out in the defroster wire in the rear window and 5 cylinder turbo charged engines, then 5 valve per cylinder engines and other somewhat geeky or geek-like differences.
 
True, they weren't Saab geeky or Volvo "odd" but they were the "under class" (according to my buddies) when compared to BMW and Mercedes.
 
There was some truth to that perhaps from 1978 up to and including perhaps at least the 1998 A6. The worm started to turn (here in North America at least) around 2000 and the new A8L, C6 A6, RS this that and the other and even the S's have pretty much completed that turning -- although the upcoming generation where more and more of the quattros are rwd biased and better weight balanced will do even more.
 
Moreover, since "everybody" has AWD and it is pretty much assumed you must offer AWD to play anymore, well Audi is just one of the pack of AWD LPS cars.
 
I fell off my chair when I found that the upcoming BMW 7 will be offered with X drive. That essentially will mean that almost all Audis, BMW's and Mercedes will be offered for sale with AWD. There will be but a few holdouts in that regard.
 
The RL is, with my hand raised to testify, NOT a geek car.
 
The RS 6 was/is pretty geeky, but even then, NOT THAT geeky. The Jag (not often mentioned here) seems to me to be a bit of an odd duck, perhaps a bit old fashioned.
 
I would assume the Cadillac and the Jaguar would be polling higher age numbers than the Acura RL.
 
Acura -- for right or wrong -- is regularly proclaimed to be "gunning" for Audi and then BMW. The RL was supposed to be an A6 killer, the RDX is supposed to out "X" the BMW X3, and even the TL, supposedly was positioned against the A4, which is odd (in this country) since virtually all A4's are AWD. And, the TL never could win a staring contest against a BMW 3 series RWD or X drive.
 
The RL was lauded -- perhaps it still would be, were it the subject of reviews -- loud and regularly near its birth. It has fizzled in the market apparently.
 
It is too eager to show its Accord family resemblance is my personal take on this situation.
 
And, who, in the wide wide world of sports has the demographic statistics to even begin to discuss the race, creed, color, country of origin, culture or language of the buyers of these LPS cars.
 
Is Infiniti or Acura or BMW more or less a "Mexican's" choice? Would a "Canadian" not buy a Cadillac? Does this data exist and does it matter unless such and such a car is known to be "the old person's cars" or "the black person's car" etc?
 
Cadillac has worked and continues to work to shed its octenigarian's choice image, but that is not exactly an ethnicity demographic, eh?
 
Here is our Big Town, you see lots of folks from all walks of life driving all sorts of stuff. Of course we even have hillbillies driving Bimmers, but I assume they also drive Acuras -- kidding!
 
Acura's RL seems to me to be too much like an Accord, a bit too small too. Further, it has not yet been able to be seen in any respect that I can tell as having much "P" in the LPS world.
 
I don't know if a V8 would cure that -- as the reality of the situation would be that even with a V8 on the option sheet, 90% of the customers would get the 6 (at least based on the internal documents my Audi buddy showed me -- which basically said, something like "90+% of the cars in the A6's class are sold with 6 cylinder engines, that is where to focus first.")
 
Acura needs a new pricing scheme, a new advertising scheme, some performance bits, and most of all, some TIME.

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