Edmunds.com | Inside Line | Auto Observer Your Account | Help | Directory
You are here:
![[F]](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/site.gif){kind=small}
Forums
Sedans Luxury Performance Sedans
9978 messages, Last post on Nov 02, 2009 at 1:30 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
|
Replying to: lansdownemike (Jul 26, 2006 9:19 am) That may be true in "generality", but I have to say I am an exception to that rule. The deciding factor on my purchase of an M45 Sport (besides all the neat toys) was acceleration only slightly less torrid than a BMW M3, auto camber rear wheel turn-in for cornering, .90 G skid pad results, a nearly roll free body, and grippy 19" wheels. My only regret was that a manual transmission was not available, a complaint shared by many Lexus owners. To me, "Fun Stuff". |
|
|
|
My $53,286 MSRP A6 w/o dp or sec dep or cap cost reduction from moi and for 15K per year is $640 including tax.  36 months I will have purchased one set of tires and paid $23,040 in lease payments. Were I to buy the car and finance it over 60 months the payment would be $60,000 approximately (about $1000 per month.) For the sake of argument, however, lets say I got the car for $900 per month which is 60 x 900 $54,000. Over 60 months I would have paid the $54K plus two sets of tires (assume $750 per set) or $55,500. I would have been without warranty for 25,000 miles (5 years 15K = 75K.) And in the case of an Audi I would have been without free maintenance since 50,000 miles, too. The "expensive" maintenance happens AFTER 45,000 miles -- you decide the number to assign to the after 45K maint requirements -- I'd say $1,000 (but I think it is more like $1,500). At 60 months, then I would have a car that I have paid out at least $56,500 assuming I have had no repairs. I would have a five year old car and no payments -- and on going routine maintenance of at least $250 per year until the first next major service interval. My per month cost is close enough to $1,000 to call it $1,000. I assume the car would be worth ? 25% of its MSRP as a trade -- call it $13,500 for the sake of argument. I could have CPO'd it (and prudence dictates I should) or Platinum protected it (Audis new extended super warranty) -- although this is approximate, this would be about $2,500 (or more, had I done it before the factory warranty had expired.) I would have, now, then an even greater per month "ownership" cost per month. But, theoretically, I could go another 25,000 miles without too much financial worry. Call it another 20 months. Using my most optimistic glasses, I remember at least one more set of tires will be needed and I can conclude that to go 100,000 miles with at least a 95% worry free experience will make my ownership cost for 80 months rise to "about" $800 per month. I have no idea what an 80 month old 100,000 miles on the OD Audi A6 would be worth and what it could be translated to in terms of a trade in value. $5,000? -- if true, my per month cost for the 80 months would be in the neighborhood of $740. I would have nothing, no car, no debt, no payments of any kind and I would be lighter by $740 x 80 or $59,200(if I had no non covered breathtakingly expensive expenses). For a car that had an MSRP of $53,286 to only cost in total $59,200 -- after 80 months -- is, shall we say, "unlikely." The thought of paying this much for 80 months may be what will motivate our fellow poster, Max, to pause and consider if he is going to pay $800 per month (about) for 80 months and end up with nothing, perhaps he might just want to consider making the same payments but at month 80 be on his THIRD new car (assuming lease terms of 36 months) and still be under the protective factory warranty cocoon. Just a thought. Of course, in my case, if it is indeed possible to lease a new $50K car for about $600 per month, in perpetuity, well what is wrong with a "permanent" car payment based on an on going need to drive 15,000 miles per year? Just another perspective, one that perhaps Max is attempting to come to grips with. I conclude: leasing is NOT for everyone. My in-laws, at retirement, cut from two cars to one and no longer have any need to lease -- they own. But at 6,000 miles per year. Now, hopefully back to the "personality" differences between American, German and Japanese LPS "owner/drivers." I have been frankly pleased that we have all remained pretty much "non defensive." Of course, there is NO NEED to be defensive on this matter. Perhaps the German car owners are unconcerned with wicked awsome sat nav systems. Based on what I've seen, the A6's voice acitivated sat nav is darn near primative -- apparently Acura or Lexus or Infiniti ownwers wouldn't put up with what passes for "avionics" in Germany. 
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: dhanley (Jul 26, 2006 8:50 am) In my case, I have tried hard to be an Audi enthusiast owner the last 6 +years and nearly 100,000 miles, but I find myself spending more and more time and from this point on--- substantial repair dollars, dealing with Audi service issues and still owing almost $14,000 on a 6 year old Audi with nearly 100,000 miles and now no warranty for anything. Also, one must factor in the extreme inconvenience of the logistics of repairing the Audi, securing a rental car along with a seemingly forever car payment. I can't match Mark Cincinnati's convenience of the leasing experience, all the while trying to run a one man business without dealing with what lately seems like a full time job just keeping the Audi running! Leasing appears to be an attractive alternative for me, although I probably won't lease a $738/mo.+ no downstroke 2006 Audi A6. |
|
|
There might be two basic questions one could ask a guy about his car: “What does that car do?” and “What does that car do for you?” A 1999 Passat was my first German sedan. Even at $24,000 it gave me a taste of German engines and German suspensions/steering/handling. What it did was its modest version of cornering on rails. What it did for me was get me excited about driving in a whole new way. Paid off over 5 years, it went another year (and up to 99K miles) under extended warranty (with one my kids driving it most of its last year -- his first car) before I sold it for $7,000. I still have fond feelings for it. Next came a 2004 BMW 325i, leased for 2 years. New level of excitement for me. Relative to Passat, it did the German thing better; and for me it was always aesthetically uplifting (to look at or be in) and “made me” want to drive it. In so far as the cliched pop psychology theory of what cars are for American men (an identity item) it was a good feeling I had about myself when driving it. Recently began leasing an M35. It does many more things than the BMW, but, I’ve discovered, doesn’t do as much for me. The latter is obviously more subjective than the former. It simply has way more luxury amenities and technology. That it doesn’t do as much for me (aesthetic appeal of exterior wore down a bit; pleasure of very good acceleration is diluted some by awareness that it’s coming from gearing that runs it at high rpms rather than from a state of the art engine; cornering/handling/steering a bit too much lighter than the BMW or the Audi A6 S-Line I had considered) is only a matter of taste. I drove a friend’s M35x and it feels like it has a tighter suspension and a tighter hold on the road (inspires more confidence, as is sometimes said) but maybe that’s just “in my mind”.
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: sfcharlie (Jul 26, 2006 12:32 pm) Yet, I am wondering if I would be as enthusiastic to dialog about the M35X as I clearly am about the Audi. Your rhetorical (I presume) post seems to indicate you are NOT unhappy with your choice, but it seems to me you probably will not be a repeat buyer for the M "doesn't do as much" for you as you would have expected or hoped (and yes, I agree that is largely subjective.) Perhaps had I started off with a Japanese car or perhaps if the first car I bought with my own money was Japanese, I would feel different. My first brand new car, purchased with my own money was in 1977, when I bought a 1978 Audi 5000. Like you, I thought the thing felt like it was on rails. To this day, nothing has ever duplicated the handling, the "carving" capabilities of a German car -- and lord knows I have test driven enough of them from all over in an attempt to find the holy grail. In fact, the M35X did come very close to the German feel -- enough so, in fact, that the Germans hopefully bought several copies to see what makes them tick. Now, the Chrysler 300C AWD wasn't bad, but it wasn't German. The SRX with Magnaride was pretty close too, as a matter of fact. And, even a CTS with a sport suspension and upsized wheels feels like it must've come from across the Atlantic somewhere. Remember. . . For all its hopes, dreams, promises and urban renewal, know this: The world continues to deteriorate. GIVE UP! You are a fluke. . . Of the universe. You have no right to be here. And whether you can hear it or not. . . The universe is laughing behind your back. Flashback. Bygones. |
|
|
|
|
Replying to: lansdownemike (Jul 26, 2006 9:19 am) Thank you. These boards are a target-rich environment for them. |
|
|
|
|
Replying to: sfcharlie (Jul 26, 2006 12:32 pm) I really enjoy driving. I enjoy the car too, but driving is the deal. In the best of all worlds I'm driving a good car in a pleasant place. Commuting is how many (most) of us spend the bulk of our driving time, but beyond that are the things that make car possession actually fun. Some are lucky enough to have a fun commute. I'm not. Point being (yeah, there is one buried in here somewhere), the way a lot of people talk (or post) about cars leads me to believe that the joy of driving, or finding new places, or trying a treasured remote road with a new vehicle, is absent. No one talks about where they've been, how much fun they had during a 800 or 900-mile day, or a particularly fun bit of road -- that sort of thing. As I've said before, I've driven a lot of rental appliances in places I've never been before & thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I'll take an Impala on a new road over an A8 on a commute any day. I'm left with the impression that the possession of the vehicle is the real deal for many, not the using of it, let alone the taking of it to new places. My put is that actually going somewhere fun or new doesn't show up on most peoples' radars, regardless of American, Asian or European. But they sure want to talk about having the radar (or nav system, or whatever).
|
|
|
Replying to: sfcharlie (Jul 26, 2006 12:32 pm) Like you, my first foray into German autos was a Passat - a 2000 GLX V6 manual. Looking back now, I really miss what that car offered, but over the short three years of ownership, I was plagued by some annoying electrical issues, and then finally, a need to replace the clutch at just 30k miles (and I've always driven a manual, so I would like to think it was premature wear, and not user error). Having always owned Japanese vehicles, primarily Hondas, prior to that Passat, I appealed to my wife that that's what we should return to, and so here I am driving a TSX and her an MDX. How much of my appeal was true annoyance with the Passat, and how much was simply the itch for a new car? To be honest, probably 50/50. Well, I'm looking to replace the TSX, within 6-12 months, with something larger and, preferably, with AWD, which puts me squarely into this LPS segment. And, though my order of preference changes quite often and surely will many times before I make a decision, right now I'm between the M35x and 530xi. Your thoughts on your M35 ownership hit home with me. On paper, the Infiniti has so much going for it, and appeals to me from a rational perspective. But, when it comes down to it, the BMW is what gets me excited. And that should count for a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: cdnpinhead (Jul 26, 2006 3:00 pm) I must admit many of the conversations have to do with the possession of the car. But, those who possess Japanese talk about different aspects of ownership than do those who possess European (mostly, but not exclusively German.) Since I actually know so few people who own American "cars" -- mostly if they own American it is either a Pickup truck or an SUV -- I can't really get a handle on what they talk about beyond the current topic: "third row seating!" The enjoyment of the car's attributes/features/specifications that make the driving (as opposed to the riding when one is behind the wheel or not behind the wheel) fun do seem to permeate the German car owners conversations and posts. Perhaps that is because of certain frames of reference. I live in Cincinnati as you know, and were I to regale you with some of the fun times and "new roads" I've had and discovered (the "back roads" between Cincinnati and Columbus or the beautiful drive to Sommerset, Kentucky) perhaps without any frame of reference the experience is simply too personal. One of my favorite drives of all times is the drive south out of Munich, en route to Garmisch and to the Bavarian Alps. The combination of segments of no speed limit auto-bahning and the rise of the Alps in the closing distance are exhilarating every time I do it. The backroads into a town called Fussen where Mad Ludwig's castle resides are a blast to drive in an Audi A4 or BMW 3 series. The drive from Luxembourg City to Triere, Germany (the Rome of the North), too, is breathtakingly beautiful. Around these parts, the drive both south and east into the hills and mountains of West Virginia are a sight and experience to behold. Recently we drove from Cincinnati to Pittsburgh to Morgantown (WV) for a "day trip" because we had heard sleepy Morgantown and its University were one of the best kept secrets in the eastern US. I would agree. This trip we were in a rented 2006 Cadillac DTS -- which was powerful and comfortable but a huge downer from the perspective of the illusion that you were driving a car that could even hope to be called "responsive." It had "same day steering" if you get my drift. The trip from Morgantown back to suburban Pittsburgh was another great road experience (visually) as we decided to avoid all US Interstate highways electing instead to travel on secondary roads. In this case, I do wish I had been in an A8 (or better, an S8.) There is a sharp (almost 90 degree) turn near my house -- I have enjoyed "playing with" the effects of air-pressure on the ability to corner. In the case of my 2003 allroad, this could be interpreted two ways: one, I loved to see the differences in handling and ability to negotiate this corner at speed at the four different positions of the air suspension; and, two, I determined with repeated "runs" that Audis (because they are nose heavy) seem to handle best if you follow the directions on the fuel filler door with respect to tire pressure -- BUT, that instead of 36 front, 39 rear, that better turn in and less roll can be had by putting 39 psi in the front and 36 in the rear. This kind of conversation, perhaps, is -- for some -- a bit too geeky and bit too left brained. But perhaps what I have discovered is that it is unlikely that someone with a Japanese LPS would even engage in thinking about these kind of "adventures" or experiments. My Lexus driving friend was far more interested in seeing how close to 200,000 miles he could get on his car without any major repairs. He made it -- but the car rusted, so he did have to have a full-on repaint to get the body of the car to survive the miles. He spoke glowingly about how his LS isolated him better than any other car he had ever had -- his former rides were almost always top o' the line Buicks (think Roadmaster, an oxymoron if ever there was one.) The other Japanese car guy I know is a CEO who basically wants a car that all he ever has to do is put gas in it. He drives like an old lady (no offense) and is about 45 years old. His weapon of choice? Lexus. I do agree his car is very quiet, just like the 200,000 mile guy said about his. Both of them wondered out loud why I wanted a "hot rod" station wagon (referring to my allroad with a stick shift.) I never could get them to relate to the "joy of driving." Just some observations. . . .
|
|
New? Join Now!
Forum Tools
Search Forums
Browse by Vehicle
2007 Lexus GS 430
2011 Acura RL
2011 BMW 5 Series
2010 Volvo S80
2010 Audi A6
2010 Infiniti M35
2010 Infiniti M45
2011 Mercedes-Benz E-Class
2010 Cadillac STS
Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
Today's Chats
