Last post on May 01, 2013 at 3:12 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
#7904 of 10338 Re: Hope we get some good debate goin' on here. . . [markcincinnati]
Jul 26, 2006 (9:00 am)
Not sure how this intersects with nascent debate here, but, following some earlier comments would lead to expectation that German LPS buyers would convey a lot of excitement about their cars. Strategic Vision (SV) has been rating consumer enthusiasm about products in many markets for about a decade. They're method is not one of problem-counting. Rather they try to measure (as social psychologists have long done) qualities and attitudes: satisfaction with complete ownership experience; perception of quality; emotional attachment to vehicle. The A6 finished last in their "Luxury Cars" category, when SV asked 29,000 buyers (who bought 2006 models in October and November of 2005) how they felt about their purchases, with regard to the three factors I just listed. The top five were: BMW 7-Series (928, out of a possible 1000 points); Infiniti M35/M45 (908); Mercedes-Benz CLS-Class Sedan (908); Jaguar XJ (905); and the BMW 5-Series Sedan (904). Audi was last of ten cars with a score of 893.
#7905 of 10338 Re: Hope we get some good debate goin' on here. . . [marleybarr]
Jul 26, 2006 (9:50 am)
True, a $4000 repair is unplesant, to say the least.
I'm not sure i understand your comment with regard to payments & repairs. While $4000 is a lot of money, what are even lease payments going to be on a car like the 2.7T? As per the audi website, a $0 down lease on a base 3.2 is going to be $738/mo. After tax, perhaps $800? That means that unless you have you make a $4000 repair every 5 months, leasing isn't cheaper.
Now, i understand the attraction of having a newer car with a warranty, i really do. I may lease my next car, but i am not under the impression i'll be saving money if i do.
#7906 of 10338 Re: Hope we get some good debate goin' on here. . . [dhanley]
Jul 26, 2006 (10:19 am)
Well, in the spirit of honkingly broad generalizations, if it's true that the Asian-ists don't give a darn about performance (as seen by the Europe-ists), it's also true, in my long observations, that most Europe-ists are so secure in their focus that it would be almost impossible for them to see an Asian (or American, as unlikely as that would be) LPS as competitive, no matter what anyone else had to say. There has been so much written on how well the Infiniti M (with the sports packages) competes with the ELPS's on their own terms that an objective observer would have to take the comments seriously. But too often the Euro-blinders go up and the reflexes go into action and some way is found to denigrate an LPS that isn't from Germany.
Having said that I certainly agree with the equally broad generalization that most people who buy Japanese LPS's really don't care about the fun stuff.
#7907 of 10338 Re: Hope we get some good debate goin' on here. . . [lansdownemike]
Jul 26, 2006 (11:05 am)
RE: "Having said that I certainly agree with the equally broad generalization that most people who buy Japanese LPS's really don't care about the fun stuff."
That may be true in "generality", but I have to say I am an exception to that rule. The deciding factor on my purchase of an M45 Sport (besides all the neat toys) was acceleration only slightly less torrid than a BMW M3, auto camber rear wheel turn-in for cornering, .90 G skid pad results, a nearly roll free body, and grippy 19" wheels. My only regret was that a manual transmission was not available, a complaint shared by many Lexus owners. To me, "Fun Stuff".
Jul 26, 2006 (12:11 pm)
My $53,286 MSRP A6 w/o dp or sec dep or cap cost reduction from moi and for 15K per year is $640 including tax.
36 months I will have purchased one set of tires and paid $23,040 in lease payments.
Were I to buy the car and finance it over 60 months the payment would be $60,000 approximately (about $1000 per month.) For the sake of argument, however, lets say I got the car for $900 per month which is 60 x 900 $54,000.
Over 60 months I would have paid the $54K plus two sets of tires (assume $750 per set) or $55,500. I would have been without warranty for 25,000 miles (5 years 15K = 75K.)
And in the case of an Audi I would have been without free maintenance since 50,000 miles, too.
The "expensive" maintenance happens AFTER 45,000 miles -- you decide the number to assign to the after 45K maint requirements -- I'd say $1,000 (but I think it is more like $1,500).
At 60 months, then I would have a car that I have paid out at least $56,500 assuming I have had no repairs.
I would have a five year old car and no payments -- and on going routine maintenance of at least $250 per year until the first next major service interval.
My per month cost is close enough to $1,000 to call it $1,000.
I assume the car would be worth ? 25% of its MSRP as a trade -- call it $13,500 for the sake of argument. I could have CPO'd it (and prudence dictates I should) or Platinum protected it (Audis new extended super warranty) -- although this is approximate, this would be about $2,500 (or more, had I done it before the factory warranty had expired.)
I would have, now, then an even greater per month "ownership" cost per month. But, theoretically, I could go another 25,000 miles without too much financial worry.
Call it another 20 months.
Using my most optimistic glasses, I remember at least one more set of tires will be needed and I can conclude that to go 100,000 miles with at least a 95% worry free experience will make my ownership cost for 80 months rise to "about" $800 per month. I have no idea what an 80 month old 100,000 miles on the OD Audi A6 would be worth and what it could be translated to in terms of a trade in value.
$5,000? -- if true, my per month cost for the 80 months would be in the neighborhood of $740. I would have nothing, no car, no debt, no payments of any kind and I would be lighter by $740 x 80 or $59,200(if I had no non covered breathtakingly expensive expenses).
For a car that had an MSRP of $53,286 to only cost in total $59,200 -- after 80 months -- is, shall we say, "unlikely."
The thought of paying this much for 80 months may be what will motivate our fellow poster, Max, to pause and consider if he is going to pay $800 per month (about) for 80 months and end up with nothing, perhaps he might just want to consider making the same payments but at month 80 be on his THIRD new car (assuming lease terms of 36 months) and still be under the protective factory warranty cocoon.
Just a thought.
Of course, in my case, if it is indeed possible to lease a new $50K car for about $600 per month, in perpetuity, well what is wrong with a "permanent" car payment based on an on going need to drive 15,000 miles per year?
Just another perspective, one that perhaps Max is attempting to come to grips with.
I conclude: leasing is NOT for everyone.
My in-laws, at retirement, cut from two cars to one and no longer have any need to lease -- they own. But at 6,000 miles per year.
Now, hopefully back to the "personality" differences between American, German and Japanese LPS "owner/drivers."
I have been frankly pleased that we have all remained pretty much "non defensive."
Of course, there is NO NEED to be defensive on this matter.
Perhaps the German car owners are unconcerned with wicked awsome sat nav systems. Based on what I've seen, the A6's voice acitivated sat nav is darn near primative -- apparently Acura or Lexus or Infiniti ownwers wouldn't put up with what passes for "avionics" in Germany.
#7909 of 10338 Re: Hope we get some good debate goin' on here. . . [dhanley]
Jul 26, 2006 (12:54 pm)
Leasing may or may not be less expensive than owning, I think it depends on the vehicle and your circumstances. Like Mark Cincinnati's relatives who drive 6,000 miles per year, probably no need to lease in that situation.
In my case, I have tried hard to be an Audi enthusiast owner the last 6 +years and nearly 100,000 miles, but I find myself spending more and more time and from this point on--- substantial repair dollars, dealing with Audi service issues and still owing almost $14,000 on a 6 year old Audi with nearly 100,000 miles and now no warranty for anything. Also, one must factor in the extreme inconvenience of the logistics of repairing the Audi, securing a rental car along with a seemingly forever car payment.
I can't match Mark Cincinnati's convenience of the leasing experience, all the while trying to run a one man business without dealing with what lately seems like a full time job just keeping the Audi running!
Leasing appears to be an attractive alternative for me, although I probably won't lease a $738/mo.+ no downstroke 2006 Audi A6.
Jul 26, 2006 (1:32 pm)
There might be two basic questions one could ask a guy about his car: “What does that car do?” and “What does that car do for you?”
A 1999 Passat was my first German sedan. Even at $24,000 it gave me a taste of German engines and German suspensions/steering/handling. What it did was its modest version of cornering on rails. What it did for me was get me excited about driving in a whole new way. Paid off over 5 years, it went another year (and up to 99K miles) under extended warranty (with one my kids driving it most of its last year -- his first car) before I sold it for $7,000. I still have fond feelings for it.
Next came a 2004 BMW 325i, leased for 2 years. New level of excitement for me. Relative to Passat, it did the German thing better; and for me it was always aesthetically uplifting (to look at or be in) and “made me” want to drive it. In so far as the cliched pop psychology theory of what cars are for American men (an identity item) it was a good feeling I had about myself when driving it.
Recently began leasing an M35. It does many more things than the BMW, but, I’ve discovered, doesn’t do as much for me. The latter is obviously more subjective than the former. It simply has way more luxury amenities and technology. That it doesn’t do as much for me (aesthetic appeal of exterior wore down a bit; pleasure of very good acceleration is diluted some by awareness that it’s coming from gearing that runs it at high rpms rather than from a state of the art engine; cornering/handling/steering a bit too much lighter than the BMW or the Audi A6 S-Line I had considered) is only a matter of taste. I drove a friend’s M35x and it feels like it has a tighter suspension and a tighter hold on the road (inspires more confidence, as is sometimes said) but maybe that’s just “in my mind”.
#7912 of 10338 Re: Two questions [sfcharlie]
Jul 26, 2006 (1:56 pm)
Although I did not move forward with the M35X even after I put a down payment to order one -- I remain somewhat convinced I would be enjoying my M35X "almost as much" as I am enjoying my A6 3.2Q.
Yet, I am wondering if I would be as enthusiastic to dialog about the M35X as I clearly am about the Audi. Your rhetorical (I presume) post seems to indicate you are NOT unhappy with your choice, but it seems to me you probably will not be a repeat buyer for the M "doesn't do as much" for you as you would have expected or hoped (and yes, I agree that is largely subjective.)
Perhaps had I started off with a Japanese car or perhaps if the first car I bought with my own money was Japanese, I would feel different.
My first brand new car, purchased with my own money was in 1977, when I bought a 1978 Audi 5000. Like you, I thought the thing felt like it was on rails.
To this day, nothing has ever duplicated the handling, the "carving" capabilities of a German car -- and lord knows I have test driven enough of them from all over in an attempt to find the holy grail.
In fact, the M35X did come very close to the German feel -- enough so, in fact, that the Germans hopefully bought several copies to see what makes them tick.
Now, the Chrysler 300C AWD wasn't bad, but it wasn't German. The SRX with Magnaride was pretty close too, as a matter of fact. And, even a CTS with a sport suspension and upsized wheels feels like it must've come from across the Atlantic somewhere.
Remember. . .
For all its hopes, dreams, promises and urban renewal, know this:
The world continues to deteriorate.
You are a fluke. . .
Of the universe.
You have no right to be here.
And whether you can hear it or not. . .
The universe is laughing behind your back.
#7913 of 10338 Re: Hope we get some good debate goin' on here. . . [lansdownemike]
Jul 26, 2006 (3:45 pm)
I am a collector of phrases, and yours: "honkingly broad generalizations" is a keeper.
These boards are a target-rich environment for them.