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Sedans Luxury Performance Sedans
10006 messages, Last post on Nov 26, 2009 at 6:59 AM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
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Replying to: designman (Jul 25, 2006 4:46 pm) I've driven three vehicles in excess of 100K miles, two in excess of 200K. Having lived with them for the time it took to accumulate those miles, I've come to expect certain things. Several of those things no longer exist. One is maintainability. Today's cars are near impossible to work on -- it's imperative to take it to the shop. That said, I still do oil, filters, brakes -- that sort of thing. More than anything else it gives me an opportunity to see whether the vehicle was designed to be easy to work on. If not, you'll pay at the store. I was sucked into my present vehicle by a very clever (or I'm stupid, equally probable) advertising campaign, combined with CR (OMG) and COTY (OMG squared) magazine stuff. There are a lot of reasons why I'll never buy another Ford product, but the car itself isn't one of them. It's had a few issues in the 97K miles I've driven it so far, but it's built buy an outfit that does taxis, police cars & limos. There's every possibility it'll last into those 100 - 200K mile ranges I've grown emamored of. My next car? A RWD diesel with good handling. There are none sold in the U.S. or Canada. I'll continue driving what I've got until it drops dead or until BMW brings one of dozens of cars that they sell elsewhere, here. YMMV. |
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jul 25, 2006 2:34 pm) I do agree with you on this. Here's the way I look at it. Cars from each geographical regions have different strengths and weaknesses, based on the environment they are designed in, and the customers they are designed for. The American idea of performance is the stop light dragster, where straight line 0-60 performance is all important. The only thing that matters is how big is the V-8, and how many horses does it have. Sophisticated suspensions, engines, or gearboxes don't matter. The quintessential American performance car is the Mustang GT. The German idea of performance is the 'bahn burner, a car that defines state-of-the-art, blending luxury and performance for traveling at 180mph in perfect comfort. The quintessential German performance car is the Porsche 911. The Japanese idea of performance is efficiency. You don't need a big honkin' V-8 if your car is small and light, and you don't need luxury and comfort at 180mph because there's no where in Japan to drive like that. The quintessential Japanese performance car is the Honda S2000. The LPS is a German idea. The Americans and the Japanese are learning how to do that kind of car, but it doesn't really come naturally the way it does for BMW. I think thats why the 5 and E are still the clear sales leaders in this segment.
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Replying to: lexusguy (Jul 25, 2006 9:00 pm) You risk bringing the conversation to a screeching halt if you start conversing reasonably. 
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Replying to: dhanley (Jul 25, 2006 9:04 pm) Have to believe about what Mark Cincinnati says about out of warranty repairs----"breathtakingly expensive!" I will have to pay for the water pump/timing belt portion of the repair (about $1500.00) because that was maintenance, not so-called warranty repair, the belt did not break in service. When the Audi is finally repaired on Friday,time to either sell it outright or trade towards something else, I don't want to pay $2000 for the air conditioning, or $5000 when the tiptronic transmission goes out next. Probably going to join the world of leasing. Since I will always have a car payment, why not drive a new one every 3 years with repairs covered, instead of a payment and the cost of service on top? |
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jul 25, 2006 2:34 pm) |
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Replying to: marleybarr (Jul 26, 2006 7:56 am) I'm not sure i understand your comment with regard to payments & repairs. While $4000 is a lot of money, what are even lease payments going to be on a car like the 2.7T? As per the audi website, a $0 down lease on a base 3.2 is going to be $738/mo. After tax, perhaps $800? That means that unless you have you make a $4000 repair every 5 months, leasing isn't cheaper. Now, i understand the attraction of having a newer car with a warranty, i really do. I may lease my next car, but i am not under the impression i'll be saving money if i do. |
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Replying to: dhanley (Jul 26, 2006 8:50 am) Having said that I certainly agree with the equally broad generalization that most people who buy Japanese LPS's really don't care about the fun stuff.
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Replying to: lansdownemike (Jul 26, 2006 9:19 am) That may be true in "generality", but I have to say I am an exception to that rule. The deciding factor on my purchase of an M45 Sport (besides all the neat toys) was acceleration only slightly less torrid than a BMW M3, auto camber rear wheel turn-in for cornering, .90 G skid pad results, a nearly roll free body, and grippy 19" wheels. My only regret was that a manual transmission was not available, a complaint shared by many Lexus owners. To me, "Fun Stuff". |
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My $53,286 MSRP A6 w/o dp or sec dep or cap cost reduction from moi and for 15K per year is $640 including tax.  36 months I will have purchased one set of tires and paid $23,040 in lease payments. Were I to buy the car and finance it over 60 months the payment would be $60,000 approximately (about $1000 per month.) For the sake of argument, however, lets say I got the car for $900 per month which is 60 x 900 $54,000. Over 60 months I would have paid the $54K plus two sets of tires (assume $750 per set) or $55,500. I would have been without warranty for 25,000 miles (5 years 15K = 75K.) And in the case of an Audi I would have been without free maintenance since 50,000 miles, too. The "expensive" maintenance happens AFTER 45,000 miles -- you decide the number to assign to the after 45K maint requirements -- I'd say $1,000 (but I think it is more like $1,500). At 60 months, then I would have a car that I have paid out at least $56,500 assuming I have had no repairs. I would have a five year old car and no payments -- and on going routine maintenance of at least $250 per year until the first next major service interval. My per month cost is close enough to $1,000 to call it $1,000. I assume the car would be worth ? 25% of its MSRP as a trade -- call it $13,500 for the sake of argument. I could have CPO'd it (and prudence dictates I should) or Platinum protected it (Audis new extended super warranty) -- although this is approximate, this would be about $2,500 (or more, had I done it before the factory warranty had expired.) I would have, now, then an even greater per month "ownership" cost per month. But, theoretically, I could go another 25,000 miles without too much financial worry. Call it another 20 months. Using my most optimistic glasses, I remember at least one more set of tires will be needed and I can conclude that to go 100,000 miles with at least a 95% worry free experience will make my ownership cost for 80 months rise to "about" $800 per month. I have no idea what an 80 month old 100,000 miles on the OD Audi A6 would be worth and what it could be translated to in terms of a trade in value. $5,000? -- if true, my per month cost for the 80 months would be in the neighborhood of $740. I would have nothing, no car, no debt, no payments of any kind and I would be lighter by $740 x 80 or $59,200(if I had no non covered breathtakingly expensive expenses). For a car that had an MSRP of $53,286 to only cost in total $59,200 -- after 80 months -- is, shall we say, "unlikely." The thought of paying this much for 80 months may be what will motivate our fellow poster, Max, to pause and consider if he is going to pay $800 per month (about) for 80 months and end up with nothing, perhaps he might just want to consider making the same payments but at month 80 be on his THIRD new car (assuming lease terms of 36 months) and still be under the protective factory warranty cocoon. Just a thought. Of course, in my case, if it is indeed possible to lease a new $50K car for about $600 per month, in perpetuity, well what is wrong with a "permanent" car payment based on an on going need to drive 15,000 miles per year? Just another perspective, one that perhaps Max is attempting to come to grips with. I conclude: leasing is NOT for everyone. My in-laws, at retirement, cut from two cars to one and no longer have any need to lease -- they own. But at 6,000 miles per year. Now, hopefully back to the "personality" differences between American, German and Japanese LPS "owner/drivers." I have been frankly pleased that we have all remained pretty much "non defensive." Of course, there is NO NEED to be defensive on this matter. Perhaps the German car owners are unconcerned with wicked awsome sat nav systems. Based on what I've seen, the A6's voice acitivated sat nav is darn near primative -- apparently Acura or Lexus or Infiniti ownwers wouldn't put up with what passes for "avionics" in Germany. 
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Replying to: dhanley (Jul 26, 2006 8:50 am) In my case, I have tried hard to be an Audi enthusiast owner the last 6 +years and nearly 100,000 miles, but I find myself spending more and more time and from this point on--- substantial repair dollars, dealing with Audi service issues and still owing almost $14,000 on a 6 year old Audi with nearly 100,000 miles and now no warranty for anything. Also, one must factor in the extreme inconvenience of the logistics of repairing the Audi, securing a rental car along with a seemingly forever car payment. I can't match Mark Cincinnati's convenience of the leasing experience, all the while trying to run a one man business without dealing with what lately seems like a full time job just keeping the Audi running! Leasing appears to be an attractive alternative for me, although I probably won't lease a $738/mo.+ no downstroke 2006 Audi A6. |
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