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Sedans Luxury Performance Sedans
10007 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 7:40 AM
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jul 25, 2006 12:16 pm) Pardon my ignorance, but isn't an 8-speed CVT an oxymoron?
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Replying to: warthog (Jul 25, 2006 1:38 pm) |
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Replying to: warthog (Jul 25, 2006 1:38 pm) Secondly, the CVT's these days are often said to be configured "as if" they have speeds -- but I suspect that the spirit of what we both said (other than the fact that I do not personally know for certain if there will be an 8 speed CVT or non-CVT -- even though I suspect it to be probable) is correct. Thirdly, I deliberately and with forethought (but not malice) made a sweepingly general post for the specific purpose of starting a "lively" discussion and perhaps even "raise the hackles" of the participants. Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding -- the spirit of my post does largely (and generally) reflect the conversations I have had and/or know about. I made no comments per se that should be interpreted to mean I think American and/or Japanese cars do not have their passionate mavens -- those who actually talk about their car's driving characteristics. I didn't even say I thought the X3 was "this, that or the other thing" -- I said my wife loved to talk about her feelings and observations about the vehicle from the perspective of a person who fancies herself both a competent and spirited driver. I am certain there are plenty of positive reviews of American, German and Japanese cars from both performance and reliability viewpoints. I was NOT suggesting the X3 was to be held up as an example of anything other than to suggest its owner's enthusiasm. I was talking about the folks who drive these cars and their range of conversation (and I'll even grant it could simply be the people I personally know -- even though I am not willing to lend total credence to that notion.) I saw a Speed Channel presentation on "the worst cars in the world" two of them were Japanese, one Korean. Now, there, I brought it up but please don't spend too many cycles on this -- for this is not what I was "on" about. I was and continue to wonder how and why -- using only anecdotes and reading what "we" post here,there and elsewhere -- folks who pick cars from certain geographies "seem" to have different interests and that superficially (at least) there are some general conclusions that seem to appear. I believe the BMW folks, for instance, are keen to go on about "the driving of their machines." By the same token, those who drive Acura's or Cadillacs or. . .fill-in-the-blanks appear to have different interests. Perhaps, just perhaps, this admittedly over generalized observation suggests why BMW (to pick one), despite apparently unimpressive reliability records and higher MSRP's (generally) have managed to outsell their American and Japanese counterparts -- by wide margins. The gist of the conclusion might be "passion for driving" trumps (within reason) price, reliability and durability (real or imagined.) I don't know, hence, my desire for polite banter on the subject with a group such as is represented by you at this very moment. The German cars in this segment, for instance, have been on a 12 month tear. Not so the American and Japanese players, despite hardly tough times (with the possible exception of the RL which seems to keep apparently finding a bottom (sales wise) but then promptly starts digging -- and ditto GM generally.) Even the poorest selling German -- the Audi -- is having its best year EVER in company history. Relatively speaking, however, it languishes in next to last place (on this side of the Atlantic, anyway.) I am in no way suggesting the Acura, Infiniti, Lexus or Cadillac represented on this forum are "inferior" in ANY way. Each vehicle has strengths and weaknesses -- but, overall, the cars in this group are far more alike than they are different. I know there are "test reports" and well-written Automotive Editorials that can celebrate or skewer any of these cars either alone or in comparisons. I am not attempting to discuss the cars based on their merits, that is -- I concede they have merits, each one of them. My topic du jour was "the personalities" in general of the folks who seem to gravitate to a certain "home country" of manufacture cars. Not many Cadillac STS owners (to pick one, not to pick ON one, however) -- based on what I've experienced, read and seen -- are all that keen to talk about the certain je ne sais quoi of their rides. 
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some folks in these threads appear to never respond directly to certain other folks, I'll make some observations as well. In general, I'd agree that the people who care most about actually driving (I've waited & waited for responses to posts describing long drives -- Mt. Evans, PCH, Cabot trail, etc.) end up with German cars. That said, I've never owned one. I may, one day, but not so far. I've bugled at length over the past six years or so about reliability/maintainability/longevity and have eventually learned that almost no one who posts on Edmunds cares. Most lease and/or are upside down on their financing. They end up with more car than they can afford and/or don't keep the thing long enough to do any number of things, one of which is to repair it after the warranty has run out. I've owned my present (American) vehicle for over six years. I drive & talk about both driving and where I've been & how it went. I've been in all but North Dakota, PEI & Newfoundland in North America (the civilized bit) & in enough of the continent & the UK to feel very comfortable there. Go figure.
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Replying to: cdnpinhead (Jul 25, 2006 4:19 pm)
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Replying to: designman (Jul 25, 2006 4:46 pm) I've driven three vehicles in excess of 100K miles, two in excess of 200K. Having lived with them for the time it took to accumulate those miles, I've come to expect certain things. Several of those things no longer exist. One is maintainability. Today's cars are near impossible to work on -- it's imperative to take it to the shop. That said, I still do oil, filters, brakes -- that sort of thing. More than anything else it gives me an opportunity to see whether the vehicle was designed to be easy to work on. If not, you'll pay at the store. I was sucked into my present vehicle by a very clever (or I'm stupid, equally probable) advertising campaign, combined with CR (OMG) and COTY (OMG squared) magazine stuff. There are a lot of reasons why I'll never buy another Ford product, but the car itself isn't one of them. It's had a few issues in the 97K miles I've driven it so far, but it's built buy an outfit that does taxis, police cars & limos. There's every possibility it'll last into those 100 - 200K mile ranges I've grown emamored of. My next car? A RWD diesel with good handling. There are none sold in the U.S. or Canada. I'll continue driving what I've got until it drops dead or until BMW brings one of dozens of cars that they sell elsewhere, here. YMMV. |
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jul 25, 2006 2:34 pm) I do agree with you on this. Here's the way I look at it. Cars from each geographical regions have different strengths and weaknesses, based on the environment they are designed in, and the customers they are designed for. The American idea of performance is the stop light dragster, where straight line 0-60 performance is all important. The only thing that matters is how big is the V-8, and how many horses does it have. Sophisticated suspensions, engines, or gearboxes don't matter. The quintessential American performance car is the Mustang GT. The German idea of performance is the 'bahn burner, a car that defines state-of-the-art, blending luxury and performance for traveling at 180mph in perfect comfort. The quintessential German performance car is the Porsche 911. The Japanese idea of performance is efficiency. You don't need a big honkin' V-8 if your car is small and light, and you don't need luxury and comfort at 180mph because there's no where in Japan to drive like that. The quintessential Japanese performance car is the Honda S2000. The LPS is a German idea. The Americans and the Japanese are learning how to do that kind of car, but it doesn't really come naturally the way it does for BMW. I think thats why the 5 and E are still the clear sales leaders in this segment.
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Replying to: lexusguy (Jul 25, 2006 9:00 pm) You risk bringing the conversation to a screeching halt if you start conversing reasonably. 
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Replying to: dhanley (Jul 25, 2006 9:04 pm) Have to believe about what Mark Cincinnati says about out of warranty repairs----"breathtakingly expensive!" I will have to pay for the water pump/timing belt portion of the repair (about $1500.00) because that was maintenance, not so-called warranty repair, the belt did not break in service. When the Audi is finally repaired on Friday,time to either sell it outright or trade towards something else, I don't want to pay $2000 for the air conditioning, or $5000 when the tiptronic transmission goes out next. Probably going to join the world of leasing. Since I will always have a car payment, why not drive a new one every 3 years with repairs covered, instead of a payment and the cost of service on top? |
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jul 25, 2006 2:34 pm) |
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