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Luxury Performance Sedans

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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

Messages Page 778 of 1035

#7767 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example by sfcharlie

Jul 11, 2006 (4:47 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Jul 10, 2006 9:35 pm)
Well a lot of folks feel like you do about the new generation BMWs, but there seem to be more than enough people out there that like them so BMW is convinced all their radical changes since 2002 were right on the money.
 
Yes, I suppose Bangle and Co. might have reached the conclusion that sales prove design choices were correct. However, they ought to give some credit to consistency of great engineering, which might be transcending design changes. And to the fact that BMW production quality has escaped the "Germans can't build reliable cars" cliché that has befallen (or been earned by) Audi and Mercedes.
 
My theory is that inventing the concept of the sport sedan + the maintenance of perfect 50/50 balance over the years + the tight steering/handling + being the only German car company to score average or above on CR and JDP surveys of reliability and initial quality = best sales among LPS. In other words, people who can afford LPS cars clearly want a German car and BMW has earned the sales and established the momentum to keep the sales, even when designers did what architects and designers have sometimes done (IMHO), which is forget that the purpose of design is to make a lot of people feel good when they see it, not simply make the designer feel creative and influential. Maybe there are lots of BMW buyers getting turned on by looking at the cars or sitting in them, but my guess is that's not what is selling BMWs.
 
What is not selling the Audi lineup might be reports like the one in the current issue of Automobile magazine. The editors drove an A6 for a year. The conclusion: "Beautiful styling, smooth powertrain, good mileage".
 
But, and this has got to be a killer to Audi sales, they report 8 trips to the service dept in their 25K miles of driving the car. For many readers, that's the game. Sure, maybe 50 will tune into the Edmunds Audi A6 forum and be reassured they can depend on Audi's great build quality and the anecdotal testimonials of a dozen enthusiastic forum participants. And some readers of the conclusion will stop at"Beautiful styling, smooth powertrain, good mileage" and not care about "abrupt throttle tip-in" (complained about in almost every review of A6 with V6 -- even though, a simple switch to Sport Mode appeared to me to overcome that, it is hardly ever mentioned), "harsh over bumps," and, the killer, "electrical glitches."
 
If Audi wants to catch Mercedes and BMW, they have got to do something to overcome their negative press and not rely on the niche of people who want to drive a sport sedan in the snow. BMW knows how -- through both engineering and marketing brilliance -- to keep their place among German sedans.
 

#7768 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example [sfcharlie] by merc1

Jul 11, 2006 (4:59 am)

Replying to: sfcharlie (Jul 11, 2006 4:47 am)
My theory is that inventing the concept of the sport sedan + the maintenance of perfect 50/50 + the unique steering/handling + being the only German car company to score average or above on CR and JDP surveys of reliability and initial quality = best sales among LPS. In other words, people who can afford LPS cars clearly want a German car and BMW has earned the sales and established the momentum to keep the sales, even when designers did what architects and designers have soemtimes done (IMHO), which is forget that design is to make a lot of people feel good when they see it. Maybe there are lots of BMW buyers getting turned on by looking at the cars or sitting in them, but my guess is that's not what is selling BMWs.
 
I pretty much agree with this. I have read right here a few times that people bought these new Bangle BMWs "despite how they look" etc. because of how they can't find/duplicate the same driving experience elsewhere. So what you're saying is likely true for a lot of buyers, then you add in those that are now attracted to BMWs because of this shift in design and poof(!) BMW posts some major sales gains. So far those who left BMW over the design and idrive haven't made a big impact in sales, but the long term report isn't out yet.
 
M

#7769 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example [sfcharlie] by markcincinnati

Jul 11, 2006 (5:59 am)

Replying to: sfcharlie (Jul 11, 2006 4:47 am)
I read your post, I see and sometimes get to drive the BMW that is parked next to my Audi in our garage and I understand and agree the German's seem to have that feeling behind the wheel that the Japanese and Americans haven't quite figured out.
 
Perhaps, too, the Japanese and Americans don't want to create a German feeling car -- I am pretty certain that must not be a tier one goal for Lexus cars.
 
Cadillac does seem to want to crack the code, on the other hand.
 
But, while sales figures -- the ones we are referring to -- are revealing, they may or may not be as conclusive as we assume or want them to be.
 
It appears to me that the BMW 5 series outsells Acura's RL by over 5 to one (using the current figure) and outsells Audi's A6 by at least 3 to one. Here, in the US, that is.
 
Audi, BMW and Mercedes sales (in the posting above) are going up -- the other players seem to be going down. Again, at least here in the US.
 
GM, for instance, appears to be having a tough row to hoe generally, and I assume this means "everywhere." On the other hand, in interviews with GM execs, they are encouraged (somewhat) by improved sales overseas, particularly in China.
 
Audi, too, posted 90+% sales increases in China and one can assume that BMW and Mercedes did well there too.
 
The confusing fact, to me, is the disparity of sales between Audi, BMW and Mercedes in the US. Elsewhere, the sales performance is closer, more neck and neck, etc; and, with some frequency Audi is the sales leader. Elsewhere, especially in Europe, Audi sales are not 1/3 of BMW's and, as far as I know also not 3 times BMW's.
 
We Americans are probably not unwilling to say "we know better," or "we can discriminate or differentiate" between these LPS cars (as if implying folks elsewhere cannot perhaps?)
 
We've hashed this over before, but we have also pointed to sales figures as indicators of "superior" engineering or style or content or fill in the blank.
 
I wonder if Audi just sends us "seconds" and we somehow figured that out and we instead buy BMW's and Mercedes because we don't want the European rejects.
 
I guess it is possible, but it has to be very unlikely that this is the case. Audi is on a tear worldwide, on its way to selling nearly 900,000 cars -- and even in the US, sales performance just keeps improving. Audi mgmt must be pleased, as one would suspect Audi shareholders are, too.
 
What has caused the discrepancy in quantity of cars sold -- in the US? I, for one, am not convinced it is the product, for although I do understand and agree that often the BMW is "the standard bearer," these cars, from what I can tell are far more similar than dissimilar (all of them, not just the Germans.) But I have driven, back to back, an A6 3.2 and a 530xi (autotrans, unfortunately) and they are both great cars -- I would take the 5 with the stick, but if forced to choose among the two both equipped with the auto, the Audi gets my vote.
 
As I contemplate my second attempt to jump off the Audi ship next year, perhaps, the only contender this time is the 530xi, unlike last time when the M35X seemed a reasonable approximation of a German sedan but priced -- at that time -- hundreds less per month on a lease.
 
The M35X was my "settle for" car at that time, but when Audi began marketing its cars via its leasing arm (aggressively) I came back to the German feel in a heartbeat. There was no 530xi stick or auto at that moment, so that was one temptation, at the time, that I did not have to face.
 
Yet, folks here overwhelmingly buy the autotrans versions -- when the BMW in both RWD and AWD is available with a stick. The night and day performance and control offered in the stick and sharply reduced in the auto version is, I find, an anomaly. But, then again, I won't get any of these without the AWD, and lots of folks think that means giving up a big chunk of performance (over a RWD only version, i.e.)
 
Elsewhere BMW and Audi (to name two) fight tooth and nail for the "sales penetration" lead. I believe currently Audi is in the lead -- just not here.
 
I am not as quick, therefore, to hang my hat on sales = superiority.
 
I find it still confusing the disparity is that great. It would seem, to me, more "normal" were the sales leaders, in order BMW, Mercedes and Audi and that they were within 5 or 10% of each other -- not 300%!
 
The dealer network here both in quantity and quality must shoulder much of the blame; and, other than Q7 ads, there seems to be little advertising offered up by Audi, but BMW and Mercedes spots are "everywhere."

#7770 of 10338 Re: BMW leases [markcincinnati] by quemfala

Jul 11, 2006 (6:15 am)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Jul 10, 2006 11:00 am)
We tried to enact the "move to the right, pass on the left" legislation here in Florida; Jeb Bush and the "O.F's" (old foggies, old f ---t's, whatever) shot it down. I don't know how effective it would have been anyway, since people have totally forgotten how to drive down here.

#7771 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example [sfcharlie] [markcincinna by sfcharlie

Jul 11, 2006 (7:26 am)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Jul 11, 2006 5:59 am)
Couldn't agree more: (1) Audi does little or nothing to excite U.S. car buying hearts -- Q7 being the one vehicle they seem to see a point in highlighting for SUV market that is specific to U.S. (2) Audi appears to be more esteemed by Germans than BMW or Mercedes and, if memory serves me here, they were even rated more reliable in one German version of CR and JDP; (3) U. S. market has been characterized as "least tolerant" of product imperfections -- and, I would add, our sense of what constitutes a product imperfection has been narrowed down to "glitches" rather than also including things like "why doesn't CR downgrade M35 for having worst gas mileage in LPS class?" (4) Audi has been content to sell to snow-belt LPS buyers, but now BMW has x cars and Mercedes has 4-matic and everyone who is worried about driving in snow is as likely to get an SUV/Jeep for that anyway, so "Quattro" marketing uniqueness (it's still unique four-wheel-drive system) has declined; (5) BMW and Mercedes are unquestioned "luxury" cars in collective consciousness; Lexus saw this and went after its niche in that psychological space, while Audi has allowed itself to be seen by many as an upgraded VW with AWD.

#7772 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example [sfcharlie] by rich545

Jul 11, 2006 (7:28 am)

Replying to: sfcharlie (Jul 11, 2006 4:47 am)
I know it's in a slightly different segment (though the Panamera sedan will at least somewhat compete with the 7 Series and S Class), but you forgot about Porsche. It just came in first in both of JD Powers' reliability and initial quality surveys, AND it's the most profitable car company there is. So there is another German marque that has it figured out possibly better than BMW does (it's definitely easier though when you're a much smaller operation). Honestly though, I think Mercedes and Audi are pretty close to BMW (with Audi being a bit closer reliability-wise).

#7773 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example [sfcharlie] [markcincinnati] by rich545

Jul 11, 2006 (7:44 am)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Jul 11, 2006 5:59 am)
As far as stick vs. auto in the US goes, isn't the reason US driver's choose auto over stick most of the time rather obvious? We have way more traffic in our metropolitan areas than Europe does (and more metro areas in general). There is nothing fun or exhilerating about driving a stick car moving 5 MPH in traffic. I love manual transmissions as I've said here before, but I just think that we in the US choose auto because of different driving conditions. Also, auto performance has gotten massively better and much closer to manual. Plus tiptronic allows you to shift albeit without a clutch (which admittedly takes some of the fun out of it).

#7774 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example [sfcharlie] [rich545] by rich545

Jul 11, 2006 (7:45 am)

Replying to: rich545 (Jul 11, 2006 7:28 am)
Mentioning the Panamera makes me wonder, where will it fit in on Edmuds forums? Will it be here, the HELM forum or somewhere else? I'd guess it will cost over 100K, but so does the 7 and S.

#7775 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example [sfcharlie] [rich545] [rich545] by lexusguy

Jul 11, 2006 (8:58 am)

Replying to: rich545 (Jul 11, 2006 7:45 am)
Mentioning the Panamera makes me wonder, where will it fit in on Edmuds forums? Will it be here, the HELM forum or somewhere else? I'd guess it will cost over 100K, but so does the 7 and S.
 
It definitely won't be here. Porsche would have to make a midsized, Boxster priced sedan for that to happen. It could end up in the HELM thread though if there's interest in the car, the Maser did.

#7776 of 10338 Re: JUNE SALES? [merc1] BMW and Audi, for example [sfcharlie] [rich545] by sfcharlie

Jul 11, 2006 (9:15 am)

Replying to: rich545 (Jul 11, 2006 7:28 am)
Well, no, as an obvious follower of CR/JDP type #s (mea culpa), I didn't forget Porsche. I left Porsche out because right now we have no Porsche LPS with a history or with even current owners to provide grist for our praise/gripe mill.
 
But, yes, I find it heartening that Porsche was able to rack up those numbers -- whatever they really mean -- since they matter to many shoppers and I want German sedans to thrive and proliferate.

Messages Page 778 of 1035

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