You are here: Forums Sedans Luxury Performance Sedans

Luxury Performance Sedans

9933 messages,  Last post on Jun 24, 2009 at 6:15 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

#7662 of 9933 Performance and Reliability by sfcharlie Jul 02, 2006 (7:16 am)
For me, there have been two different car worlds.   When I'm surfing here or reading CR and JD Powers, the only car I can see owning is the M35/M45 or a Lexus. I cannot buy German because other U.S. owners complain about their reliability to CR and JD Powers. And I'm going to drive the car for six years and 100K. In this world, when asked about their car, everyone answers only in terms of lesser or greater number of trips to service department. They care about nothing else.   In my everyday world, I drove a 100% trouble-free BMW in 2004-2005, which I took to service once, for scheduled maintenance at about 13K. I lease cars, so am not thinking of which one will be trouble-free at 90K. My friends are thoroughly enjoying a variety of cars from BMW, Mercedes, and Audi and, when asked, talk glowingly about the design, the inerior aesthetics, and the looking forward to the unique driving experience.   Yes, of course, it's possible that a Yamaha-engined Volvo will join the European sedan stable and turn out to be the car we all hope will come over the horizon: a combination of the smooth driving pleasure of a V8, the steering/handling of BMW or Aud, and Lexus-like reliability reports in CR and JD Powers. In fact, the CEO of Mercedes recently press-released a speech about MB making huge changes to achieve Lexus-like reliability by 2008.   When the M35 first appeared, CR included it in the survey of owners it conducted in the spring of 2005 for the spring-2006 annual car issue. No mention was made of the M35/M45 having been in owner's hands for only a few months, when CR reported that 92% of them said they'd buy it again or when they claimed that its "first year" reliability was very impressive and, thereby, created the impression that we'd all be crazy not to buy their "top-rated" (after only three months) LPS.   In my personal experience, I'm not sure that anything's been a better predictor of a potential-buyer ending up still being glad they bought the car two years later than that they loved the interior/exterior look and loved test-driving it. Mainly, I want to look forward to driving the car everyday and, although, on principle, having to drop a car off a few times a year to have a minor-glitch corrected is not ideal, the only car I ever regretted buying for reliability was a 1980 Saab.   I have to remind myself that I won't love a car because CR says I will. Replies to this message: altared (Jul 02, 2006 2:57 pm)
#7666 of 9933 Re: Performance and Reliability [sfcharlie] by altared Jul 02, 2006 (2:57 pm)
Replying to: sfcharlie (Jul 02, 2006 7:16 am) True. I'd never buy based on CR specifically. And the initial reports had to be skeptical because of the M35's newness at that time. But I also read other reports since then such as Car and Driver... and JD Power just recently put it #1 in, I believe, the luxury segment, along with Porshe, BMW, et al in other segments. That does say a lot. My 2007 M35x should be delivered to me by the end of this month. It was my choice of vehicle for the combination of luxury, performance and reliability.   I sold an Infiniti 2000 I30 before leaving USA and only did routine maintenance, i.e. oil changes, one antifreeze change, a belt change, and one set of tires.
#7667 of 9933 Re: german [lexusguy] by calhon Jul 02, 2006 (4:34 pm)
Replying to: lexusguy (Jun 30, 2006 1:53 pm) "Volvo's CR scores are no better than Mercedes, BMW, or Audi, so I wouldn't pick them if you're seriously concerned about reliability. In fact, the S40 has much worse scores for '05 than the 3 series, A4, and even the C class."   CR ranks the brands on the basis of predicted reliability as follows: Volvo 12th, BMW 21st, Audi 27th, and Mercedes 32nd of a total of 36 brands. Incidentally, Infiniti is 28th, largely due the SUVs.   The predicted reliability of the S40 is "average"; same as the the A4 Avant (Audi's most reliable model) and the Z4, BMW's best model. Mercedes' most reliable model is the SLK which is rated "below-average".   That said, I will remind you that you cannot judge how much better/worse something is from purely relative data such as rankings, percentages above/below average, or little colored dots. You need absolute numbers for that.   On the 2006 JD Power IQS, Honda is ranked 6th while Audi is ranked 19th. Looks like a huge difference, doesn't it? Until you look at the actual numbers to find that it's 1.1 versus 1.3 problems/car. The same holds true for the CR data. A 45-point difference there is 1 problem/car over 3-5 years. That's the difference between "average" and "much above/below average" - the clear versus the solid red/black dot.   Brand reliability differences is largely a dead issue, except in (mis)perceptions where it thrives. Replies to this message: cdnpinhead (Jul 02, 2006 10:45 pm) markcincinnati (Jul 03, 2006 6:55 am) lexusguy (Jul 03, 2006 8:37 am) calhon (Jul 04, 2006 1:12 pm) lexusguy (Jul 04, 2006 4:11 pm) and 7 more...
#7668 of 9933 Re: german [calhon] by cdnpinhead Jul 02, 2006 (10:45 pm)
Replying to: calhon (Jul 02, 2006 4:34 pm) Very well put.   Thank you.
#7669 of 9933 Re: german [calhon] by markcincinnati Jul 03, 2006 (6:55 am)
Replying to: calhon (Jul 02, 2006 4:34 pm) Brand reliability differences is largely a dead issue, except in (mis)perceptions where it thrives.   Polite Golf Applause, please!   CR is also relatively dead insofar as this kind of information regarding automobile choices. Now using them to find a spouse, NOW THAT makes sense! C'mon, we don't really buy $50,000+ cars based on the passionate prose from CR do we?   Better yet:   Did anyone check Better Homes & Gardens for their take?   How about some other erudite auto publication, such as Money Mazine, Men's Health, Towne & Country or Ladies Home Journal.   There, I feel better now.   Happy Fourth everyone!
#7670 of 9933 Mark by dhamilton Jul 03, 2006 (7:19 am)
hilarious.....
#7671 of 9933 The dead horse beaten again by lansdownemike Jul 03, 2006 (7:27 am)
It's been cool among car enthusiasts to disrespect CR's auto reliability numbers for a very long time, so I'm entirely used to these discussions. Remember, I'm not talking about CU's verbal descriptions which are entirely irrelevant to people who like driving. It's the statistical summaries of reported problems and comparison of models using those summaries that are the useful numbers here. They're reliable.   Those who take their M3s to the track and have set up their garages to repair recalcitrant transmissions need not worry about such things. But the rest of us, who like driving but who rarely if ever get the last 2% of performance out of their rides, and don't want to go to the dealer more often than absolutely necessary, should pay attention to CR reliability numbers. Among the best LPS's there are differences in CR-reported reliability that over four years of ownership can make a big difference in the "ownership experience." (And to those who want to say you can have a lemon Lexus or a magnificent Mercedes, I suggest you take a good remedial statistics or probability course. At the very least, don't go to Vegas with more than you can afford to lose because you will.) Replies to this message: markcincinnati (Jul 04, 2006 6:50 am)

You are here: Forums Sedans Luxury Performance Sedans