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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

Messages Page 622 of 1034

#6211 of 10338 Re: True Cost To Own [warthog] by tagman

Feb 12, 2006 (4:04 pm)

Replying to: warthog (Feb 12, 2006 2:40 pm)
The 2006 Civic hybrid is ahead of the non-hybrid WITHOUT the tax incentives. Admittedly,it is a rare case, however. The tax incentives are icing on the cake. I agree they should not be generally used to compare the two alternatives, but since they exist, and the hybrid (Civic) is ahead anyway, it is merely a bonus to at least consider. Also, I am aware that there is generally an up front cost that is hard to retrieve with many hybrid vehicles.
 
The reason I chose the 2006 Honda Civic hybrid as an example is that is has FINALLY broken the financial calculation problems, and it is the FIRST time a hybrid actually comes out ahead by comparing it to its non-hybrid counterpart. Other hybrids will not generally come out ahead necessarily. The Prius is an interesting calculation because it is ONLY a hybrid, and it either has value on its own merits or not, depending upon one's point of view.
 
The value of clean emissions and energy efficiency is something that the hybrid haters seem to overlook. It has a value that EVERYONE benefits from. It is a good thing.
 
For those wanting a more fuel-efficient and cleaner-burning vehicle, the hybrid DOES represent a legitimate alternative . . . sometimes at a premium, but not always . . . as is the rare case with the '06 Civic hybrid.
 
In California, another advantage of owning a hybrid is the State's permission to use the car-pool lanes, at least for the next two years for now. Add that to the tax incentives, and it's no wonder that it looks attractive to many out here.
 
Again, I agree that diesel is a fantastic alternative . . . in fact, I am waiting for the new Mercedes GL to be released with a diesel. I think it will be a terrific way to get fuel efficiency and power in a large SUV.
 
 
 
TagMan

#6212 of 10338 Re: The only fair comparison.. [lexusguy] by tagman

Feb 12, 2006 (4:47 pm)

Replying to: lexusguy (Feb 12, 2006 2:49 pm)
The only fair comparison is the E320 CDI vs. the GS450h. Everything else is either not in this class, or irrelevant hypotheticals. Somebody needs to road test these cars, and see who comes out on top.
 
YES, that is an EXCELLENT idea that I would love to see.

#6213 of 10338 Re: True Cost To Own [tagman] by grandaddy

Feb 12, 2006 (5:09 pm)

Replying to: tagman (Feb 12, 2006 4:04 pm)
Tagman, the only "proof" you offer that you are right are your own rather ridiculous assumptions. All your supposed "savings" are in your ficticious fuel costs and your equally ficticious mpg estimates for the two cars.
 
First, you used an average of 50 mpg for the hybrid. Not even the city epa mileage for the hybrid civic is 50 mpg. They show a range of 40 to 50. We all know that even this is ridiculously high. In the real world you might get 30 mpg.
 
Second, you used an average of $3.00 a gallon over 5 years for the cost of gasoline. Another crystal ball assumption. Will probably be more like $2.25.
 
Third, you insist on using only city epa estimates. Of course this gives a big advantage to the hybrid and a big disadvantage to the non hybrid.
 
Edmunds' more realistic assumptions showed a savings in fuel costs over the five years as $1590. for the hybrid. Your very skewed assumptions showed a savings of $3,000.
 
Again, sorry but your assertion is false.

#6214 of 10338 Umm 5 years? by markcincinnati

Feb 12, 2006 (5:45 pm)

Well this 5 year stuff is fine, but the articles I have read say at 7 (or 8) years --CURRENTLY-- the cost both financially and ecologically demonstrates an even stronger case against hybrids.
 
Something to do with batteries and their known replacement costs and their speculated disposal costs.
 
Right now the case for hybrids is a future case, not that that is a bad thing.
 
My only issue is the fact that diesels are here right now and able, if applied, to be of real help on almost all fronts.
 
I heard a talk show the other day and the host alleged the expense and environmental impact of a [current] massive switch to hybrids that was ugly, expensive and dirty.
 
Of course, the good news, I guess, is the probability of this happening is slim to none and slim is already heading out of town.
 
I wonder what Bill Ford knows that we don't?

#6215 of 10338 Re: True Cost To Own [grandaddy] by tagman

Feb 12, 2006 (6:54 pm)

Replying to: grandaddy (Feb 12, 2006 5:09 pm)
Not even the city epa mileage for the hybrid civic is 50 mpg.
 
Excuse me . . . but it IS IN FACT 49 MPG . . . I have no reason to make up data. I beg your pardon . . . look it up at www.fueleconomy.gov That is the official EPA mpg ratings website.
 
I don't know WHERE you are getting your data.
 
Also, take a good look at the recent years of gasoline prices and tell me the percentage increases, and then see who's paying attention and who isn't.
 
Further, for an example, if you had owned a Prius in the last couple of years, and sold it right now, you would have experienced TREMENDOUS resale AND TREMENDOUS MPG's while you owned it . . . much better TCO than many other vehicles. No crystal ball needed to see this.
 
Are you suggesting that a price upgrade for a larger ICE is somehow smarter? How does THAT pay back at ALL?!!
 
This isn't about "right" or "wrong" as you seem to put it. It's about preferences. I simply would prefer to choose a diesel or hybrid over a conventional ICE. Beyond that, they each have their own unique advantages . . . including the hybrid. And they will even improve. Credit where credit is due.
 
Sorry, gramps, but in today's world I now believe that a more fuel efficient engine is a better choice . . . you don't have to agree . . . but I think I would find you making the same case against fuel cell technology in the not-to-distant future.
 
You remind me of the days when pollution control systems were considered "too expensive" for American Industry . . . or when "recycling" was too expensive, due to the initial costs. But, after a while, the initial costs were finally overcome and there were big REWARDS for being EFFICIENT.
 
Believe me, there IS a REWARD for all of us to be fuel-efficient. Disagree if you want to, but I GUARANTEE you that you will continue to see more fuel-efficient vehicles over the next decades, including hybrid technology, like it or not.
 
For you, it seems to be ONLY about the MONEY . . . and unless you can justify the expense TODAY, you would rather stay the same old course. Maybe you can't see the benefit TOMORROW . . . but it WILL be there.
 
TagMan

#6216 of 10338 Re: True Cost To Own [tagman] by grandaddy

Feb 12, 2006 (7:27 pm)

Replying to: tagman (Feb 12, 2006 6:54 pm)
Thanks for helping to prove yourself wrong. Your web site backs up everything I have said. The difference in the 5 year fuel cost is $1650. NOT $3000. They have a nice side by side comparison tool.
 
Once proven wrong about the Civic Hybrid you attempt to change the subject and start talking about the Prius and what might happen in the future. And by the way, it was you who brought up the money or cost aspect.
 
Rather than stand up like a man and admit you were wrong, you just continue to whine and squirm. To avoid further embarrassment in the future, I suggest that you have your facts straight before you shoot your mouth off. Sorry, but you have been nailed. Now get over it.

#6217 of 10338 The Diesel vs. Hybrid Debate by turnbowm

Feb 12, 2006 (7:41 pm)

There seems to be divided opinion on which technology is better and the discussions have become somewhat "lively."
 
IMHO, the best technology is the one which substantially reduces or eliminates the requirement for fossil fuel.
 
One technology that looks particularly promising is biodiesel..... a vehicle that runs on vegetable oil (or peanut oil as originally planned by Rudolf Diesel).
Even more interesting would be a pairing of technologies; i.e., a biodiesel-hybrid. That might really shake up the "oil interests."

#6218 of 10338 Re: True Cost To Own [grandaddy] by tagman

Feb 12, 2006 (8:04 pm)

Replying to: grandaddy (Feb 12, 2006 7:27 pm)
Rather than stand up like a man and admit you were wrong, you just continue to whine and squirm
 
It was YOU who incorrectly quoted the Civic hybrid city MPG at 40 instead of the correct 49. I think you could do a little "standing up like a man" yourself, as you say. Your whole concept of "whining and squirming" is irrelevant to me.
   
I only post what is my opinion. If I use data, I make every attempt to be accurate. I will not be engaged in personal attacks because someone disagrees with me.
 
Additionally, your rather unkind and unecessary remarks violate the spirit of the posting guidelines for the Edmunds forums.
 
It is my opinion that based on the current prices of the vehicles we have discussed, that when one factors in the resale and the fuel efficiency, the REAL price of gasoline, particularly in California, and further considers the benefits of cleaner emissions, and optionally the potential tax benefits, as well as HOV car-pool benefits in California, there is enough data to suggest that the hybrid is a legitimate alternative (and not the only alternative) to the conventional ICE, particularly, but not only, in California.
 
I find nothing embarassing about that opinion. Some will agree and others will not. That is what this forum is all about.
 
If you would like to dig deeper into the hybrid discussion, may I suggest the hybrid forum from this point forward? Some of your posts can be quite engaging, if you will just keep out the personal attacks.
 
TagMan

#6219 of 10338 Re: The Diesel vs. Hybrid Debate [turnbowm] by tagman

Feb 12, 2006 (8:08 pm)

Replying to: turnbowm (Feb 12, 2006 7:41 pm)
IMHO, the best technology is the one which substantially reduces or eliminates the requirement for fossil fuel.
 
Welcome words. I agree. You may find this little piece of data interesting:
 
link title
 
WOW! Don't you think?
 
TagMan

#6220 of 10338 Re: The Diesel vs. Hybrid Debate [tagman] by turnbowm

Feb 12, 2006 (8:26 pm)

Replying to: tagman (Feb 12, 2006 8:08 pm)
Indeed, the money spent in importing fossil fuel is mind-boggling! Unfortunately, the situation will get worse before it gets better.

Messages Page 622 of 1034

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