Last post on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
#6143 of 10348 Re: They Ain't Gonna Sell [gohorns1]
Feb 08, 2006 (8:43 pm)
I have had only minor [Audi, BMW, VW] problems since my first Audi in 1977. I gather some folks are not satisfied with the level of reliability that have been associated with Audis, BMW's and Mercedes over some not too distant past time frame.
I had two Audi A6 4.2's that had between them 9 sets of brake rotors. The MY's were 2000 and 2001. I had an On*star problem with my 2003 allroad and my wife had multiple battery failures in her TT key fobs (she had three TT's in a row and they -- the allroad and the TT's -- were otherwise without trouble.)
We had some trepidation with the 2005 BMW X3, but at 14,500+ miles it has needed two sets of wiper blades and one pint of oil. My 2005 A6 has had in total four advanced key pushbuttons, one set of wiper blades and two oil changes at less than 14,000 miles. The first three pushbuttons failed one, two, three months in a row. The fourth button has been fine for four months.
The Digital Signal Processing surround sound mode in my Premium Bose System in my A6 will not retain the surround mode "permanently" -- i.e., it requires resetting every few days. It does not rise to inconvenient.
The small sample population you may discover here is NOT unimportant. However, I am not certain there is enough information here to make a decision.
Had I personally been burned or even seriously singed, I might be able to duly caution and warn you.
Other than the items noted above, which may or may not be considered unacceptable to you, I would repeat this acquisition.
However, as I have shared, I did come "this close" to the new Infiniti M35X until Audi and my dealer leveled the price playing field. Moreover, now that BMW has a 5 series that offers both AWD and a manual transmission, it would also be a strong contender for my business.
The LPS world seems to have been and MAY still be a world that is full of $50,000+ cars that have lots of gizmos that are probably expensive to repair out of warranty and perhaps even somewhat more likely to require repair.
I look at the dashboard of my A6 and wonder what the cost of the nav/mmi screen would be should it go south out of warranty. When bored in traffic I counted 82 knobs, dials, switches and gauges that do things, control things etc -- I imagine they individually or collectively would be, as I am prone to say, "breathtakingly expensive" to repair or replace out of warranty.
If, for whatever reason, you place a premium upon reliability and/or durability, the word here on edmunds, is that you will probably not be comfortable with an American or European brand.
I suspect, too, however, there are several (many perhaps) Audi, BMW and Mercedes owners who have had multiple representatives of their brand and not considered them to be reliability nightmares.
I have rented many Japanese cars. I have test driven ONLY the Infiniti M35X extensively. I have zero ownership experience with any non German car (my dad, after the two Hudson Hornets, had Chrysler products when I was growing up and he was a shade tree mechanic and Chrysler products in the 1960's required required a live in mechanic.)
Perhaps a satisfied Camry owner would logically almost naturally progress to a Lexus GS, etc. I would not imagine you would be dissatisfied.
The reviews of some of the Japanese cars usually complement the LPS offerings as "too perfect" too isolating.
The German cars and recently the M from Infiniti seem to have made the cut as being "really satisfying to drive."
You should test the cars extensively -- you should weigh your personal need for "reliability" -- you should get what you want.
No argument made by any of us here or in the car magazines is worth even a fraction of your opinion -- unless they are willing to buy the thing for you.
I continue to find Audis a satisfying and enjoyable experience. I am certain I would have found the M from Infiniti also quite acceptable. The BMW with the stick shift if it is priced to compete with the Infiniti and the Audi would certainly merit the most serious consideration -- but that is ONLY because I value the stick shift. The BMW would probably drop to second or third place were it to suddenly drop the manual option.
All opinions, all the time.
Feb 08, 2006 (9:06 pm)
I've been away from this interesting forum for a few weeks, and came back to 100's of new posts.
How do you people find enough time in the day for all this writing, and still make enough $$ to buy these LPS's? I get by on 4 hours sleep, and still can't find enough time.
There must be some magical formula...
#6145 of 10348 Re: They Ain't Gonna Sell [markcincinnati]
Feb 08, 2006 (10:03 pm)
I did look at the GS one day when my "baby Lexus" was getting routine maintance. This was one time I did agree with the reviews, it was too isolating. It was not the car for me. Again, I was disappointed as I trust Lexus reliability. But needless to say, I am not going to buy a car only on reliability. Your absolutely correct, I am going to need to test drive the 5 and M45 more extensively. When I do, the decision should be clearer. I appreciate your comments.
#6146 of 10348 Re: They Ain't Gonna Sell [markcincinnati]
Feb 09, 2006 (12:09 am)
Have you heard the reports that Audi is rushing a Q5 and Q3 to market? I hope they dont take their eye off the ball as Mercedes did in order to get a bunch of new models out in a very short timeframe.
#6147 of 10348 Re: Whew.. [bjbird2]
Feb 09, 2006 (4:45 am)
... How do you people find enough time in the day for all this writing, and still make enough $$ to buy these LPS's? ...
Haven't you figured it out yet? The more money you make, the less work you actually do!
Feb 09, 2006 (5:12 am)
The operative word is "delegation."
And, sad but true in my field (IT) we spend many cycles demoing, putting proposals together followed by waiting and waiting.
Where's a "good" (just kidding) Y2K crisis when you need one.
The market seems to be stronger in 2006, but for some of us, we still are "under-employed."
The only recompense however is somehwat more time to actually drive my LPS car.
#6149 of 10348 Re: They Ain't Gonna Sell [gohorns1]
Feb 09, 2006 (5:23 am)
The 5 Series, in E39 form, was known for its incredible reliability. I'd venture that the 3 AND 5 Series are not only BMW's biggest sellers, but their most reliable models. When the E60 came out, it had a lot of new technology, albeit some of it from the 7 Series. Those issues were reflected in their quality scores.
But those technologies have improved to the point where they are putting it in their 6's and 3's now, so they must be confident that the major issues have been dealt with. I know people who have had BMW's since the 1980's and have been to the dealer for only scheduled maintenance and an occasional issue. My 2002 BMW did not have one issue outside of the warranty period. All its little nits were during warranty (cluster controller failure right after purchasing, window regulators, and a cracked windshield due to Mojave desert heat and sun).
I would not hesitate to buy another BMW. I would not hesitate to buy an Audi either. Audi's suspension and mechanics are as reliable as BMW's, which I feel are very solid.
The biggest issues I think that face LPS owners is all the high tech extras, MMI, iDrive, Nav, Automatic xxx.
I am glad you really enjoy your Camry. You talk about friends who give bad anecdotal evidence about BMW and Audi. I've heard the bad anecdotal stories about Toyota/Lexus and even was witness to a transmission basically failing on a test drive (on a Camry no less). Based on that, I give Toyota/Lexus very close scrutiny when looking at their new offerings, just as I'm sure you look at BMW and Audi with a close, skeptical eye.
Having driven some Lexus's on a test drive and having driven BMW's and Audi's as well, I can say that the Lexus does indeed drive nicely and something to be considered in this segment. However, my driving orientation is towards feeling the road, seeing what the car can do. Based on what I've seen, felt, and read, nobody does it at this point in time like the German makers.
As Mark said, pretty much any car, short of my Jeep Wrangler, can be an expensive proposition to keep when outside of warranty. My 2002 was a pleasant experience in that my out of warranty costs for repairs was - $0.00. I can only hope that my future purchases are similarly priced for non-warranty expenses.
#6150 of 10348 Re: Future Audi A4 [esf]
Feb 09, 2006 (6:00 am)
Unless you mean that Canada is lucky to get a torquey diesel Avant. Audi is considering selling its diesel lineup here.
Buying a new Audi turbodiesel on both sides of our border sounds fine to me, although California may be another story.
#6151 of 10348 Re: They Ain't Gonna Sell [erickpl]
Feb 09, 2006 (6:06 am)
I feel the need to clarify, why I'm not sure, but I have been driving a Lexus ES300. I call it an expensive Camry, because it is a Camry in Lexus clothes. At the time I bought it, it was the right choice. I was not ready to enter LPS territory, but I wanted more than a Toyota. I have not been dissapointed by my choice.
Paul, thanks for your comments. I realize that these cars have good warranties and most problems will be covered. My concern is having to make repeated trips even to deal with warranty issues. Of course, that is just part of having a car. I agree with you that the GS is not what I am looking for as it has too little of the "s" in the LPS.
#6152 of 10348 Re: They Ain't Gonna Sell [gohorns1]
Feb 09, 2006 (7:19 am)
Luxury Performance Sedan -- LPS.
The GS has too little "sedan?"
The reviews seem to credit the GS cars with lots of Luxury, OK Performance and, well, it IS, after all, a sedan.