Last post on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
#5839 of 10348 Re: I'm not a doctor, but I do PLAY one on TV. . . [calidave]
Jan 09, 2006 (3:38 pm)
I never said I made my decisions based on merit, I said we (and I include myself) make decisions based on what we tell ourselves has merit. Quoting your quote of my post:
"Since most of us make our decisions based not on merit (other than what we tell ourselves has merit). . . ."
Rather than write a REALLY long post -- as if -- my analysis was not of Audi and BMW at the exclusion of other systems.
The analysis or explanation if you will (and even if you won't) was ONLY of the quattro system. I did in fact mention the Volvo system (but I don't think I used any names OTHER than TorSen.) Sure I used the brand name, quattro, X-drive an SH-AWD, I alluded to Infiniti's and made mention of Volvo's which is, as I recall, a system called "Haldex."
As I have come to understand, in my own muddling way, TorSen systems react prior to wheel slippage while the other systems, generally, react after slippage occurs.
The real world value proposition remains subjective or at least it is open to an individual's determination of how much "performance or safety and value" the TorSen system imparts.
I attempted to analyze the TorSen's salient technical attribute -- not its only attribute; and, although I think it is clear I think its difference is both real and could be significant, I also recognize the very real possibility that the differences may be insufficient motivation for LPS AWD purchasers.
It is true, that out of 28 Audis, ONE, was in the shop for 11 days right after I got it -- that car was my 2003 allroad. The car remained in the shop AT MY REQUEST. There was an issue with On*star. No other mechanical or electrical problem required the car to be there.
Just to cover myself, virtually no Audi I have had has required more than 3 visits annually to the dealer, inclusive of normal maint and or repair work.
Since 1995, almost all work done on my Audis has been service interval work.
Audis have been very reliable from my perspective.
If your personal experience over many many many Audis belies mine, well that is too bad. And, assuming you too have had at least two dozen Audis, our combined 48 Audis are probably not all that revealing considering that Audi must sell at least 20,000 cars per year (even in the US -- and yes, I know it was 83,000 in 2005, I am trying to make a point about the statistics that we represent -- we two multiple multiple owners of Audis.)
If calidave has only owned 4 or 5 Audis personally instead of my "presumed" dozens and has ONLY what he reads here to go by, for instance, well I would at least like to represent an owner of Audi products since early 1977 and "testify" that they have been very reliable.
Of course, most of you long time posters will also recognize that I am NOT able to comment as to the durability of Audis since I cannot recall EVER having kept one past 50,000 miles.
But, my experiences in the first 50,000 miles have been so overwhelmingly positive that I just can't wait to get my next, newer and better version. If I thought they were troublesome or had issues of any kind in this regard, I certainly would not keep repeating the acquisition of these fine cars.
I may be crazy, but I am not stupid -- OK, maybe a little bit.
#5840 of 10348 Re: AWD comparo and Tires [designman]
Jan 09, 2006 (5:23 pm)
Have you ever driven on roads where there is a solid sheet of glare ice? I have, more times than I care to remember. The traffic moves at 5mph or less. One cannot accelerate without spinning out the tires - regardless of the drivetrain one the car. The only real remedy, and they are illegal in most states, is studs. That helps somewhat. Of course one could put on chains.
#5841 of 10348 Re: AWD comparo and Tires [kdshapiro]
Jan 09, 2006 (7:30 pm)
Good point. Pure ice is hopeless. I guess it's the tweener situations where the differences start coming into play. Down with the Zamboni comparo. Hmm, do Zambonis slip and slide? IIRC they slip a little when braking. Haven't been to a hockey game in a while.
Jan 10, 2006 (5:04 am)
About 6 months ago, I brought up the apparent frequency of problems owners were seemingly having with the new M and Infiniti's inability or unwillingness to deal with them as a topic of discussion on the M thread only to be shot down by several posters.
Since that time I have neither read nor posted there again.
#5845 of 10348 Re: Thank You! [hpowders]
Jan 10, 2006 (6:46 am)
Hpowders: Recheck the M boards. Almost all of the problems reported concern the moonroof (rattles--where there is at lease one TSB) or noise level. A few people have some type of problem with a heat-exchanger or something making a racket as the car is cooling (after parking). Many of the posts on the M problems board are asking for assistance with bluetooth (rather than a problem). Frankly, for a "new" car, I find there to be a rather remarkable LACK of issues. I have had two minor annoyances(one was the moonroof thing) that were promptply fixed. They did not change the way the car drove (which is fantastic, BTW).
I don't recall anyone complaining about how the car drives except for a few people who state some issues which sound like alignment/tire-inflation problems and some slippage on icy roads.
There are two or three who seem to have had more issues. One of these has cut-and-pasted the same post on multiple boards (praising the car, d***ing the company--making my first impression one of a competitor's shill). That particular problem seems to be more individual dealer-related.
If you check the M problems board, you will find most love the car and have one or two minor issues.
#5846 of 10348 Re: I'm not a doctor, but I do PLAY one on TV. . . [markcincinnati]
Jan 10, 2006 (8:15 am)
yikes!!! 28! How OLD are you? Seriously, that is a lot of cars.
I have never personally owned an Audi. My sister had one in the 70s. It was cute, sporty, but a complete dog from a reliability standpoint. Without question the worst auto-buying my family made. I have three friends who owned Audis in the last three years. All three loved their Audis, and all three sold them within two years of purchase because they were getting eaten alive by reliability issues. One of my colleagues has an Audi, and loves it, and has had no troubles with it. And he would definitely dump it if it even hiccupped. (sic)
I realize this data is certainly not sufficient for decison-making. I have not been confronted with this decision for years, however, as my last two car purchases have been of vehicles in segments that Audi did not play in.
I wasn't criticizing your non-mention of Volvo/Haldex. Was just wondering what your take on it was.
#5847 of 10348 Re: I'm not a doctor, but I do PLAY one on TV. . . [calidave]
Jan 10, 2006 (9:02 am)
Although I'll grant if we want to blog we must be willing take some critical replies, I did not take your remark as a criticism. I just wanted to make certain you (and anyone who felt likewise) understood my long (ya think?) post was more about (an analysis perhaps?) Torque Sensing (brand name quattro) rather than a one to one comparison between Audi's system vs BMW's. I was attempting to keep the NON TorSen comments general while explaining that most of the systems employed in these LPS cars are meant to do similar things.
They are meant to direct power from front to rear and rear to front (and in the case of SH AWD a bit from left rear side to right rear side and so forth.)
TorSen, not exactly quattro (even though since every quattro BUT the TT is TorSen, the TT is Haldex) is "different" in that it is the system these LPS guys could use that can actually said to be effectively "pro-active" rather than "reactive."
BMW with its longitudinal engine COULD be TorSen if the engineers and managers and accountants wanted to adopt it.
And, etc etc etc the other guys.
TorSen is some evidence that "doing it for a long time" may have value to the consumer. Or plainly put, experience counts (at least a little bit.)
I do not understand the statement that some folks had some reliability problems with their Audis and were being eaten alive. Audis have come with maintenance and warranty since 1988 -- at one time they had a three year test drive program 100% of everything except gas, plates and insurance for 3 years. Today Audis are covered by a 4 year 50K program called the Audi advantage.
If they had had an Audi for 2 years, recently, the only way they would have NOT been held harmless from issues is if they exceeded 50K miles OR did not CPO the car.
Further, why would someone dump an Audi if it hiccuped? Or would this person dump ANY LPS brand if it burped?
#5848 of 10348 Re: AWD comparo and Tires [designman]
Jan 10, 2006 (9:39 am)
"Each automakers individual choice of tire could have a HUGE effect on its performance on ice, that would have nothing to do with the AWD system."
"... I totally agree with your assertion that dissimilar tires neuter the comparo"
I agree, leveling the playing field by putting on identical tires would make the test more objective, but I don't know if that would account for a nearly 40% difference in time.
And, I hope you are not saying that BMW and Lexus are putting significantly lower quality tires on their cars compared to Audi. If that were the case, I guess there should be a HUGE performance disadvantage in everyday driving as well (a 40% disadvantage?). Maybe BMW and Lexus owners should go out and replace their tires for the "superior" Continentals the Audis come with.
I understand that every test drive or comparo has it's flaws, they are never performed scientifically. But, one can at least get a general idea of a cars performance and come away with a bit more information.
At least one thing can be said, AWD vs. Rear (or Front) Wheel Drive makes a significant difference [in identical cars (and I am assuming identical tires)]:
"On the ice, the rear-drive GS was practically uncontrollable, and took 15 seconds to travel 60 feet. The all-wheel-drive GS covered the distance in about half the time..."(actually in about 8.6 seconds)
I agree that Audi squandered it's advantage it had for so many years with it's AWD. AWD seems to have caught on and may be a real selling point in the years to come.
" "When you're spending $50,000 or more, all-wheel drive is such a small percentage of the total...It seems silly not to get it."