Last post on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
#4888 of 10348 Re: There's always some way to rig the results. . . [dewey]
Nov 11, 2005 (10:44 am)
We need an "Emotorcon" that signifies sarcasm. While I am of the opinion that the BMW and the Cadillac were both stock, the differences seem to boil down to the fact that the STS we were offered had the optional (but I would imagine fully stock componentry) sport suspension, tires and wheels -- and as I conjectured, inflated to the max.
The BMW although technically a 2005 was the OLD lower horsepressure engine with a 5 speed steptronic.
The "comparable" in my opinion, BMW would have been the then current vintage which would have had a 6 speed steptronic and a 255HP 6.
Yes, seriously, no sarcasm, the Cadillacs were able to be tossed about with greater aplomb than the BMW. The Cadillac was crisper, tighter and overall just better. It is a shame (if we really wanted to be objective) that cars cannot be tested back to back EXACTLY this way. Then, the performance aspects -- the objective aspects -- could be ascertained both via stop watches and the seat of your pants (literally.)
I seriously doubt, however, that being afforded the ability to test drive thusly would do much to wear down the predisposition to "wanting" a certain fill in the blank LPS car.
My buddy won't have anything but BMW's -- he knows it, I know it, he knows I know it, his wife knows it, we all know it. Yet he tests Mercedes-Benz "comparable" offerings and the whole time is calling them "porky" and "an old man's car" and probably some other funny at the time epithets. Now, the fact that the Mercedes did seem less athletic and perhaps "porky" to me too is besides the point. The Mercedes was an S class and my friend ended up [testing and buying] with a BMW 7 with some "sport package" option that gave it huge wheels and tires, sport suspension and a lower final drive ratio.
The test in this case was rigged -- but heck, he rigged it himself, he tested the porky Mercedes against the much more athletic (as configured) BMW. Assuming there is a sport package offered (optionally) on the Mercedes, I often wonder how things would have gone had he tested a sporty Merc against a porkier Bimmer (bygones and it probably makes no never mind, since he was biased in favor of the BMW and against the Mercedes.)
I'll bet the non sported up 7 would have been no less porky (he said in hindsight.)
My friend points to "the little blue and white propeller" and says that makes "all the difference."
At that price level either one of these cars would be great -- and since both of them at that test drive were RWD cars, I wouldn't have either of them here in "we have winter don't you know" Cincinnati. Puzzling, too, in the winter my friend drives a Jeep Liberty 'cause the Bimmer is useless on slick surfaces. Rather, he calls me and says "bring your 'innie' today" thinking it clever calling my Audi an Innie (yea, I groan when he says that, but it is funny the way he says it.)
The point is -- my friend is probably more like most of us LPS posters here on edmunds than he is different. He is 99.999% certain the BMW is the best. And, even moreso than I think even I am, he is unwilling to change brands.
He would have been mortified had I actually taken delivery of that Infiniti M35X even though he thinks I have "settled" for a car with four rings instead of a blue propeller.
I was (past tense) getting fed up with the value proposition as I then saw it with respect to the LPS from Ingolstadt. There was no 530xi for sure for sure at that moment in time and the M35X is so darn close to having most of the driving dynamics of the BMW and the cool technology of the Audi [and it was $200 bucks less than the Audi on a lease] it truly was a no brainer.
But, the Infiniti was NOT my first choice for a car, it was my "optimum" (read compromise) between the car that I wanted and the price that I had determined I was willing to pay.
The badge (in my case, Audi) mattered -- but not $200 per month for what seemed to me to be a comparable vehicle.
My wife, too, wanted a new Audi A4 3.2 ($44K MSRP) but when a new BMW X3 ($47K MSRP) was $103 per month less AND could be had with a stick shift, the blue propeller won over her certainty (at that moment) that the Audi was the better car.
Now, the badge and the actual experience of owning the BMW have changed her tune -- indeed, she pokes much fun at me for getting the A6, as she now knows the 530xi is out and can be had with a stick shift.
Probably we all have a singular predilection when it comes to our LPS cars.
Audi was either very smart or felt forced to figure out a way to get me into a nearly $54K A6 for less than we had been quoted for a $44K A4 about 2 months prior.
We'll see what happens next time -- I just mailed payment #6 of 36 today, I figure I'm back in the hunt a scant 24 months from now.
Wish I could "justify" an S8.
But, I might "settle" for a BMW 530xi, especially if they still offer manual transmissions on the 2008 models.
#4889 of 10348 Re: There's always some way to rig the results. . . [markcincinnati]
Nov 11, 2005 (11:34 am)
We need an "Emotorcon" that signifies sarcasm
In this case the Emotorcon would beep negative in terms of sarcasm! During 1980 I did learn driving in a Cadillac Eldorado, no kidding!
I will revise one of my prior statements as suggested by you to the following :
It is the opinion of many most BMW models provide the best drivetrains/chassis combo in the industry.
There that sounds less rhetorical than my prior statement!
Also I am not 99.9% blindly devoted to BMW like your friend! I would pick the BMW3 or BMW5 over all the competition not because of the BMW brand but because of the models themselves! If Honda sold a car like a 3 series I would say the hell with luxury badges and buy a Honda instead!
#4890 of 10348 Re: There's always some way to rig the results. . . [lexusguy]
Nov 11, 2005 (12:19 pm)
I felt so unclean after this event -- I dutifully took the clipboard they gave us with the form for the test of each car and filled it out.
This was before I knew this was a Cadillac "sponsored" event.
Now, the "guys" from both C&D and R&T were there (but not any of the big names, of course) so while I tend to think the rigging was real, I also think it was done within the parameters that could be ordered off of the option list.
The Cadillac had had all the sport option boxes checked off, not so the BMW.
All the cars had about 2,000 miles on them, so while I guess there could be reasons to doubt the veracity of this "editor for a day" event -- I think it would be a slippery slope for C&D and R&T to put their names on such an event and have it be subsequently revealed that the cars tested were special "one off" versions rather than "available to all willing to custom order their cars."
Knowing what I know now just about the air pressure in my tires, I can think of plenty of ways to enhance the Cadillac and hobble the BMW with impunity.
#4891 of 10348 Re: There's always some way to rig the results. . . [dewey]
Nov 11, 2005 (12:25 pm)
Heh. You youngins! I learned on my Grandfather's '67 Galaxie 500.
#4892 of 10348 New Ford 3.5L V6
Nov 11, 2005 (1:44 pm)
"The engine and transmission have plenty of expansion room. The V-6 could easily be scaled up to deliver 300 horsepower and is designed to support turbocharging and direct injection, said Samardzich."
You guys think that this engine is going into the successor to the Lincoln LS?
#4893 of 10348 Re: There's always some way to rig the results. . . [dewey]
Nov 11, 2005 (7:53 pm)
>If Honda sold a car like a 3 series I would say the hell with luxury badges and buy a Honda instead!
Would you buy a Z4 or an S2000? Why?
#4894 of 10348 Re: There's always some way to rig the results. . . [markcincinnati]
Nov 11, 2005 (8:49 pm)
I have to believe that the Cadi/BMW comparison was a fair comparison of a “sport” equipped Cadi vs. a standard 530i. I have driven all of the cars covered in this forum (multiple times) in an (as yet unsuccessful) attempt to find one that I wanted to buy. I always use a base comparison car when I do this so that I have a common frame of reference. Although I am not supposed to mention it on this forum, my reference standard is a $28,000 manual transmission 2005 Subaru GT Limited (fitted with 225 summer performance tires rather than the crap AS Bridgestones which come with the car).
I will admit that I am biased towards BMWs. From my first Alpina 1600 in 1967 through 1990 I always owned BMWs. That said, I really did not like the base, non-sport 530i. It floated. It wallowed in turns. The steering was scary at high speeds. The Subie whipped it. I am certain the sport-equipped Cadi did too. The fairer comparison would have been a 530i Sport.
Out of all the cars on this forum, the one I like best is the M35/M35x. I would probably rationalize the fact that they are thirsty. But, they are just flat too noisy – clearly noisier than my reference car which costs 2/3 as much. I wish they had more sound proofing and a taller 6th speed top gear.
But if you are driving the cars covered on this forum, you should also try a 330i. The Sport model, in particular is a real, classic BMW, without all of the electronic game nonsense (iDrive, Active Steering etc.) of the more expensive cars. It is quick, comfortable and really sweet to drive. My only problem: it is a size smaller than I was looking for, and I have not been able to get past the value proposition: a properly equipped 330i Sport or 330xi costs $41 to $42K. That is awfully close to a comparably-equipped base M35.
#4896 of 10348 Re: There's always some way to rig the results. . . [mexibec]
Nov 11, 2005 (9:16 pm)
I have not pondered such a choice since both the BMW Z4 and Honda S2000 do not suit my family lifestyle! That is why I have to settle for the compromise of a sport sedan/wagon !
But hypothetically if I was single or an empty nester I would pick the Honda S2000. Why? Because I love the idea of listening to its motorcycle pitch while reving between 6k to 9k rpm! I've heard the S2000 loves to rev. Also the S2000 is cheaper than the Z4!
#4897 of 10348 Re: New Ford 3.5L V6 [jrock65]
Nov 11, 2005 (10:56 pm)
Yes. It may show up in the Zephyr as early as next year. The current LS is supposed to die off pretty soon. I'm pretty sure its replacement is going to be based on the AWD version of the Ford 500, itself borrowed from the Volvo S80.
Apparently DEW98 will continue, but only in the next Jag S-type, which will not get a shortened version of the aluminum XJ platform as previously planned.