Luxury Performance Sedans

Replying to: drtravel (Nov 10, 2005 6:16 pm)

Replies to this message:
• drtravel (Nov 10, 2005 8:39 pm)
• garyh1 (Nov 10, 2005 8:39 pm)

Replying to: drtravel (Nov 10, 2005 6:16 pm)

WHoaaa.....slow down on the sarcasm if you want to follow in the footsteps of the Master (even if within the sarcasm, truth lies)

Replying to: bdr127 (Nov 10, 2005 7:34 pm)

Replying to: bdr127 (Nov 10, 2005 7:34 pm)

Replying to: drtravel (Nov 10, 2005 6:04 pm)

Perhaps you have been invited to the Road & Track / Car & Driver "editor for a day" event. If you have, and it was the same one that seemed to be touring in our neck of the woods (Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania, & West Virginia) you know that you were treated to the chance to ride and drive and evaluate a BMW 530 vs a Cadillac STS (V6) and a Lexus GS. You actually had a couple of different comparos, so if you have participated in this event, you may have had different cars to compare.
 
But, no matter what you are comparing, there will always be a Cadillac in the mix.
 
At the time, this didn't seem odd or out of place in any way -- the cars under eval were in theory at least competitors.
 
I fully expected the BMW to be the accelerating, braking and handling champeen.
 
In both of the day's comparos, the Cadillacs flat out beat the other competitors. Objectively, or at least quasi-objectively, the CTS and STS models "kicked butt."
 
Of course, by asking appropriate questions AND then after all the Sturm und Drang being ushered into a tent that was obviously a portable Cadillac showroom, it hit me: this "editor for a day" event was rigged.
 
The BMW was a 2005 225 HP car with standard everything and this means small wheels and tires -- especially since the STS was "sport everything," including big and wide 18" low profile balonies on shiny optional chrome wheels.
 
The interior of the BMW's were all black, the Cadillacs had a creamy ecru interior that somehow made the car seem less confining and open.
 
I'd even bet, but I can't prove it, that the BMW had the minimum allowable air pressure in its High Performance All Season tires and that the Cadillac had the maximum allowable air pressure in its Ultra High Performance Summer Only tires.
 
The Caddy with its sport suspension and w-i-d-e tires was composed and calm, and by comparison, the STS's 255HP made the Bimmer seem downright anemic.
 
Three people plus a "pro" driver were given the opportunity to drive the six cars each twice around "the track" (cones set up in a huge asphalt parking lot.)
 
Most of us were "car nuts" (men and women alike) -- and most of us were biased in favor of the BMW. Until the very end, I think most of us couldn't figure out why the BMW seemed to wallow, understeer and have difficulty with probably over 700 pounds of passenger mass.
 
Had they NOT ushered us into the Cadillac tent after the festivities, I am convinced I would be here telling you I might have given the Cadillac a short shrift while I was shopping (I had had my new A6 about one month at the time of this event, so there was no turning back.)
 
Instead, I am here to tell you that these cars are obviously more alike than different and that they are indeed quite sensitive to suspension settings, tires and wheels. More sensitive than I would have imagined.
 
Indeed, to underscore that point, I must remind you that I have now been living for ONE FULL WEEK with my new higher air pressure and with more air pressure in my front tires than in my rears -- and loving the significant improvement in "turn-in" and at least the reduction of the sensation of plowing (that Audis, and some other nose heavy LPS cars are "famous" for.)
 
What cannot be rigged, of course, is predilection -- that is your predilection for an Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac or whatever.
 
Many of us have been saying for some time now that our passion for these LPS cars has little basis in logic or the scientific method. We are, as noted earlier, quite badge influenced (some of us, more than others.)
 
I had to smile when reading the pronouncement that "The fact of the matter is that most people buy a BMW because most models have the best drivetrains/chassis combo in the industry."
 
If we would change the word "fact" to "opinion" and "most" to "many" I could support this statement.
 
As it stands though, the fact is that Cadillac has the best drivetrain/chassis combo -- and it is verifiable by your amateur peers and the pros alike.
 
Of course, as noted, the results, from one point of view, were rigged.
 
And, make mine Finlandia -- because it really, really is the best, no really.

Badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges!
 
Oh yes we do.

Replies to this message:
• lexusguy (Nov 11, 2005 8:56 am)
  • markcincinnati (Nov 11, 2005 12:19 pm)
    • nmdriver (Nov 11, 2005 8:49 pm)
• dewey (Nov 11, 2005 8:58 am)
  • markcincinnati (Nov 11, 2005 10:44 am)
    • dewey (Nov 11, 2005 11:34 am) and 6 more...

Replying to: markcincinnati (Nov 11, 2005 8:42 am)

Replies to this message:
• markcincinnati (Nov 11, 2005 12:19 pm)
  • nmdriver (Nov 11, 2005 8:49 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Nov 11, 2005 8:42 am)

Replies to this message:
• markcincinnati (Nov 11, 2005 10:44 am)
  • dewey (Nov 11, 2005 11:34 am)
    • lexusguy (Nov 11, 2005 12:25 pm) and 2 more...
    • mexibec (Nov 11, 2005 7:53 pm) and 2 more...

Replying to: dewey (Nov 11, 2005 8:58 am)

We need an "Emotorcon" that signifies sarcasm. While I am of the opinion that the BMW and the Cadillac were both stock, the differences seem to boil down to the fact that the STS we were offered had the optional (but I would imagine fully stock componentry) sport suspension, tires and wheels -- and as I conjectured, inflated to the max.
 
The BMW although technically a 2005 was the OLD lower horsepressure engine with a 5 speed steptronic.
 
The "comparable" in my opinion, BMW would have been the then current vintage which would have had a 6 speed steptronic and a 255HP 6.
 
Yes, seriously, no sarcasm, the Cadillacs were able to be tossed about with greater aplomb than the BMW. The Cadillac was crisper, tighter and overall just better. It is a shame (if we really wanted to be objective) that cars cannot be tested back to back EXACTLY this way. Then, the performance aspects -- the objective aspects -- could be ascertained both via stop watches and the seat of your pants (literally.)
 
I seriously doubt, however, that being afforded the ability to test drive thusly would do much to wear down the predisposition to "wanting" a certain fill in the blank LPS car.
 
My buddy won't have anything but BMW's -- he knows it, I know it, he knows I know it, his wife knows it, we all know it. Yet he tests Mercedes-Benz "comparable" offerings and the whole time is calling them "porky" and "an old man's car" and probably some other funny at the time epithets. Now, the fact that the Mercedes did seem less athletic and perhaps "porky" to me too is besides the point. The Mercedes was an S class and my friend ended up [testing and buying] with a BMW 7 with some "sport package" option that gave it huge wheels and tires, sport suspension and a lower final drive ratio.
 
The test in this case was rigged -- but heck, he rigged it himself, he tested the porky Mercedes against the much more athletic (as configured) BMW. Assuming there is a sport package offered (optionally) on the Mercedes, I often wonder how things would have gone had he tested a sporty Merc against a porkier Bimmer (bygones and it probably makes no never mind, since he was biased in favor of the BMW and against the Mercedes.)
 
I'll bet the non sported up 7 would have been no less porky (he said in hindsight.)
 
My friend points to "the little blue and white propeller" and says that makes "all the difference."
 
Hogwash.
 
At that price level either one of these cars would be great -- and since both of them at that test drive were RWD cars, I wouldn't have either of them here in "we have winter don't you know" Cincinnati. Puzzling, too, in the winter my friend drives a Jeep Liberty 'cause the Bimmer is useless on slick surfaces. Rather, he calls me and says "bring your 'innie' today" thinking it clever calling my Audi an Innie (yea, I groan when he says that, but it is funny the way he says it.)
 
The point is -- my friend is probably more like most of us LPS posters here on edmunds than he is different. He is 99.999% certain the BMW is the best. And, even moreso than I think even I am, he is unwilling to change brands.
 
He would have been mortified had I actually taken delivery of that Infiniti M35X even though he thinks I have "settled" for a car with four rings instead of a blue propeller.
 
I was (past tense) getting fed up with the value proposition as I then saw it with respect to the LPS from Ingolstadt. There was no 530xi for sure for sure at that moment in time and the M35X is so darn close to having most of the driving dynamics of the BMW and the cool technology of the Audi [and it was $200 bucks less than the Audi on a lease] it truly was a no brainer.
 
But, the Infiniti was NOT my first choice for a car, it was my "optimum" (read compromise) between the car that I wanted and the price that I had determined I was willing to pay.
 
The badge (in my case, Audi) mattered -- but not $200 per month for what seemed to me to be a comparable vehicle.
 
My wife, too, wanted a new Audi A4 3.2 ($44K MSRP) but when a new BMW X3 ($47K MSRP) was $103 per month less AND could be had with a stick shift, the blue propeller won over her certainty (at that moment) that the Audi was the better car.
 
Now, the badge and the actual experience of owning the BMW have changed her tune -- indeed, she pokes much fun at me for getting the A6, as she now knows the 530xi is out and can be had with a stick shift.
 
Probably we all have a singular predilection when it comes to our LPS cars.
 
Audi was either very smart or felt forced to figure out a way to get me into a nearly $54K A6 for less than we had been quoted for a $44K A4 about 2 months prior.
 
We'll see what happens next time -- I just mailed payment #6 of 36 today, I figure I'm back in the hunt a scant 24 months from now.
 
Wish I could "justify" an S8.
 
But, I might "settle" for a BMW 530xi, especially if they still offer manual transmissions on the 2008 models.
 
 

Replies to this message:
• dewey (Nov 11, 2005 11:34 am)
  • lexusguy (Nov 11, 2005 12:25 pm)
    • warthog (Nov 12, 2005 3:33 am) and 1 more...
  • mexibec (Nov 11, 2005 7:53 pm)
    • dewey (Nov 11, 2005 9:16 pm)