Last post on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
#4355 of 10348 Dewey's anecdotes
Oct 14, 2005 (2:43 pm)
Discussion of anecdotal evidence is apropos. I've leased 3 Cadillac STSs in a row(1999, 2002, and now 2005). Cadillac doesn't have a stellar reliability reputation, but I've never had one in for anything other than routine maintenance and once when some idiot rear-ended me at a stoplight.
I too leaned toward a 2005 M35x or A6 for my current car. My experience with Minneapolis Infiniti dealers was so terrible that I could not buy that car (try as I might ... including providing a down payment). On the verge of getting the A6, my local Caddy dealer got me a V8 AWD sport (1SG) to drive during the whole employee pricing/subsidized lease/please don't leave us phase. The $63k Caddy ended up leasing comparably to a much cheaper V6 Audi. I ended up in the Caddy and am delighted. I was not the least bit interested in a less well equipped STS and in fact had eliminated the car from consideration early on in my search.
While CR and others say the Caddy may not be reliable, that wasn't my experience, so anecdotal evidence becomes my objective reality.
GM's pricing is silly, as is the way they limit option packages (buy 6 things you don't want to get the one you do). But as a recent poster observed, if you are leasing a car in this class, the MSRP is not very relevant. The down stroke and payment are. Discounts very considerably and manufacturers manipulate residuals, interest rates, and purchase prices to move iron that needs be moved. Supply and demand remain the main determiners of lease cost. Once the lease cost is determined, one can make the subjective determination of value.
I wanted a fast, cool, tricked out, comfortable, AWD car. For me, I made the right choice.
#4356 of 10348 Re: BMW & M's [sdiver68]
Oct 14, 2005 (3:23 pm)
they can mod a '66 Olds Toronado to be a Bentley GT killer
Can they really? Cool....I got one of 'em out back in the barn under the tarp. I knew it would be worth something someday.
If they can do that with a 66 Toronado, just think what could be done with a 70's era Omega! I had one of them, too, but someone stole it and replaced the tarp over a pile of red dust. The lengths some people will go to.
But really, 5k to modify the 3.5 VQ? Why not just go with the 45? That's right around 5k. Maybe Infiniti will get the message from us Northerners that a 45x would be just the thing!
#4357 of 10348 Re: Is the RL a 5 Series Killer? [dewey]
Oct 14, 2005 (4:40 pm)
I'm just calling the shots based on the info thats available. You made it sound as though if you walked into a Lexus dealer now, and bought a new GX470, you'd be taking a chance on reliability. Incorrect. Lexus fixed everything for the '04 model year. There is no second year info yet on the 5, so therefore there is no proof yet as to how much of an improvement BMW has made with it. It's true that the '98 5 was a lot better than the infamous '97, but it still was far from perfect.
#4358 of 10348 Re: Mare's eat oats and Doe's eats oats. . .and anecdotes. . . [markcincinnati]
Oct 14, 2005 (5:23 pm)
Well, if you have had two dozen plus Audi's, and the third one was not introduced until 1992 model year (4.2 liter V8) . . . that makes for 20+ Audis in 13 years. Considering how frequently you update your cars, it's not surprising that they all held up fine (except for a few minor but still annoying glitches). Any car maker would be fine in the first couple years's ownership, statisticly speaking.
#4359 of 10348 Re: Is the RL (or M) a 5 Series Killer?
Oct 14, 2005 (7:27 pm)
Objective vs. Subjective
Objectively BOTH are fine cars with their pluses and minuses (neither car is perfect, there is no such thing).
Subjectively the 5 Series is so butt ugly in the interior and so much more expensive that the M doesn't have to "kill" the 5. The 5 committed suicide.
Ain't subjectivity great
#4360 of 10348 Re: Mare's eat oats and Doe's eats oats. . .and anecdotes. . . [brightness04]
Oct 14, 2005 (7:37 pm)
Here is how this has worked, even though I wonder why bother to explain given that I am almost certain these responses are unlikely to sway any one to do anything (even if that were my intention, which it is NOT).
I got my first Audi in 1977 -- the company that I worked for actually allowed me to go pick a car, they leased it, they made the payments, I had to keep records, etc. I had been using the company's 1976 Audi silver Fox and when the Audi 5000 came to the US, I thought it was every bit as good as the BMW's and Mercedes that I had tested but thought were overpriced. I liked my 1978 5000 so much that when my then girlfriend, now wife needed a car, I suggested she try a 1979 Audi Fox GTI.
As time passed, I worked for companies that either gave me an auto allowance or actually allowed me to pick the car I wanted within $ limits -- other than the American Eagle (a short lived 1980 model), I always went with Audis since BMW's at the time were always way way way more money per month and way way more expensive to maintain. Besides, in Cincinnati, my Audis almost always went in the snow, while the BMW's were only good about 9 months of the year.
So, when fate or foolishness or fortune put me in a position to found my own company, I continued the policy of offering auto allowances to my employees. The operative word was "allowance," as only once did I actually pick the car for the employee (my VP of sales) and I bought him an Audi 5000S (leased actually.)
So my wife and I ALWAYS had either a current year or one year old Audi (since 1977) and my company always had at least one Audi "in the fleet" during a 21 year period.
Usually I personally have a car that is my primary driver about every 24 to 30 months or so. Sometimes that means I have had a 2000 followed by a 2001. Sometimes it means that I get a 1978 model in 1977 and a 1981 model in 1981. Usually it has meant that I have had a new Audi about every other model year, or if I haven't, my wife has one that is one year newer or one year older.
I have, no secrets, rarely kept one of these cars much past 45,000 miles. I did keep one to 49,500 and the ONLY Audi I bought used a 1987 5000CS turbo quattro I kept til about 75k miles which was about 50,000 total miles as I recall that I personally drove the car.
I do not believe mere mortals can afford to keep any of these LPS cars out of warranty unless one is either incredibly lucky or so wealthy that "self insurance" is a practical option.
So here I sit with the anecdotal experience of driving over two dozen Audis since 1977 (but this includes all the Audis in my 3 car garage and in the parking lot of the small company I own.)
You may conclude that my Audi experience is invalid since virtually all of the cars I had from Audi were gone in equal to or less than 50,000 miles from the day I took delivery of them.
I cannot tell you about my experiences at 150,000 miles on ANY car in my entire 53+ years on the planet. If that makes my experiences less than germane and valuable in the LPS world, so be it. I can't change what has happened.
Many folks here, however, that seem to have issues with their cars, have these issues long before they leave the relative safety of the original warranty. This only makes sense, to me, though. If your 30,000 mile old LPS car has been in the shop over and over and over, it seems only natural that you will dump it asap financially.
Audis in my personal experience are at least as reliable as "everybody" else's cars.
I am often wrong, but never uncertain, of this.
I know that the reliability records of Audis, BMWs and Mercedes certainly seem to be below average. But, without fear of contradiction, I assure you reading this that my experience with Audis since 1977 and dozens of cars has been at worst average and "anecdotally" above average.
Further, even though I have test driven cars until I am weary, nothing (so far) beats and almost nothing equals the feel behind the wheel of a German car.
If the Japanese cars are indeed flawless, perfect and absolutely reliable, I still at this moment haven't driven one that has the same feel as a German car.
The Infiniti M does come close, however.
Of course, I could be wrong.
#4361 of 10348 Re: Is the RL a 5 Series Killer? [lexusguy]
Oct 14, 2005 (8:05 pm)
I had no intention to target the GX470's reliability. My only intention was to show that you cannot judge a new model based on its first year of introduction, whether its a Lexus or a BMW!
As MNJOE mentioned in a prior post anecdotal evidence is most persuasive when it is your own evidence. My personal experiences with owning a BMW(driving and out-of warranty expenses) has been quite satisfactory. And that in itself creates a certain level of comfort in buying a BMW3/5 in some future date. Unfortunatedy my anecdotal evidence is not going to persuade you or anyone else!
CR stats are great if you are
1)a first time car buyer with no prior experience
2) a disgruntled car owner who is fed up with owning lemons and is seeking a auto that is less problematical.
The above two criteria does not apply to me!
#4362 of 10348 Re: Mare's eat oats and Doe's eats oats. . .and anecdotes. . . [markcincinnati]
Oct 14, 2005 (8:39 pm)
Thank you for the long details. I never implied that your experience was invalid; I just wanted to put in perspective that your two dozen audis since 1977 actually meant relatively short ownership of each one, when they were brand new or nearly so. 4% engine failure rate is still very high, but that could be just a fluke.
FWIW, I keep my cars typically 6 years (buying a new car every 2-3 years, and keep 2-3 cars at the same time). The Japanese cars tend to be completely trouble-free, whereas the European ones tend to need frequent attention for the little things . . . I have no idea why head lights burn out much faster on European cars, tires wear out much faster, and so do brakes; door screws get loose faster too sometimes, and defintely fuses popping much more frequently . . . even though I'm prety damn sure that they use the same third-party light bulbs, fuses, etc.. Not sure why.
#4363 of 10348 Re: Good Research [hpowders]
Oct 14, 2005 (9:45 pm)
Oh well, I guess I also got lucky in the 10% range. 30K miles and 3 yrs into a 2002 A6 2.7T. car is fun, fast, reliable, great.
Now trying to find a 2006 A6 with the right packages (Tech + Premium + S-Line) that doesn't have to be ordered from the factory, seems like the country is running out??
#4364 of 10348 Re: Mare's eat oats and Doe's eats oats. . .and anecdotes. . . [brightness0
Oct 15, 2005 (10:55 am)
Just curious about whether or not an Audi extended warranty policy is worth looking at or are they cost prohibitive?