Last post on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
#4154 of 10348 Re: . [aas5]
Oct 07, 2005 (12:11 pm)
Let's try to keep straight exactly what you said, and I said.
1) "But I think you are kidding yourself and many others when you say that the 5 series is great and better looking than its previous generation."
What you originally said was that I was kidding myself for the above reasons, not for the brand recognition. That was mentioned in the following:
2) "Sure the sales are growing, but to me that's just due to the fact that people are willing to pay $10K more for the brand recognition and slightly better driving dynamics (compared to my M45 at least, to most other cars BMW is in fact superior) and nevermind the ugly minimalist interior design."
That's when I said, "Right, people are willing to spend 10K more of their hard earned money for a car they can't stand to look at." I never said they wouldn't spend $10K to be "seen" in a BMW. I said they wouldn't spend the extra $10K if they really hated how the car looked. It's one thing to be seen. It's other to drive a car you dislike just to be seen. I'd say that would be a small number of people that would send $65K just to be seen in a car they found ugly. Again, just my opinion.
3) "I am very confident that there were a lot more people who admired the classic old generation 5 design and hate the new look."
I said, "Hmmm, sounds like an opinion based on nothing to me." Okay, so it's based on, as you said, a statiscally small population. Just the fact that my friends don't share your friends' opinion on the new designs proves right there that it's not a universal opinion, and is not, in fact, representative of the general view. People tend to choose friends that are more like them than not so their group of friends are LESS likely to be representative of the whole. The only way to judge the general feeling towards a car fairly is to see how many people buy it.
Which brings my to my final point. You said, "I think you are forgetting that all of the luxury car sales have increased dramatically over the last 10 years as people have and are willing to spend more money on LSs" in response to me pointing out that the current 7 has sold more than any before. So did the new 7 come out 10 years ago? No, it came out in 2002 (or late in 2001). That's only a little over 3 years ago. So the 10 period of increased luxury sedan sales really applies more to the 740 than the 745 (now 750). The last generation 7 was around for 7 years; the new one has eclipsed its sales in a little over 3 years. What does that tell you?
#4155 of 10348 audi dealerships
Oct 07, 2005 (1:04 pm)
I believe that there are many more bmw dealerships than audi....I know I would not buy an audi if there wasn`t a conveniently located dealer....tony
#4156 of 10348 RE: Eye of the beholder seems to be part of the issue. . .
Oct 07, 2005 (1:06 pm)
Both the 5 and 7 have been panned by the critics but yet sales are up? Why?
The BMW factor is very strong and still exists. Owning a BMW is what people want. Being able to say, Hey lets cruise to the mall in my BMW just sounds good, I guess.
The redesigned 7 has had great sales due to excellent leasing options and the fact its cheaper than the redesigned A8 and the upcoming new S500. People who can afford a $699/month lease can get the 7.
The 5, well this car is the benchmark in this forum. Nuff said. People buy it for various reasons and for the last year, BMW has become a luxury rental company. You can lease it for $599 and for that, its become more popular. I think the new exterior design isn't that bad, but the interior isn't worth the $60K pricetag for a 530i.
I personally have owned BMW's and Mercedes. I just purchased an 05 Acura RL. For me, the car has everything I want and I also didn't prefer buying another car that would cost me $10K more. Personal preference, which makes the mid-size luxury market awesome. 6 great cars to choose from. Now that's a good thing.
#4157 of 10348 My thoughts on Audi's US sales problem
Oct 07, 2005 (1:59 pm)
Just based on people I've known recently with Audi's, and what I've seen in CR and on the PA\NJ lemon law website, I think a large part of Audi's problem is bad reliability combined with bad dealer service, not some acceleration problem from 20 years ago that no one remembers, along with a general resistance to making cars designed for Americans. Can anyone tell me what Audi's current return customer rate is? I'm pretty sure Lexus is over 90%. People that I've known with Audi's, particularly with last gen A6s, have told me the would not buy another. They didnt make the kinds of headlines that M-B is currently making, but I think '98-'00 A6s were just as bad as anything M-B has done in the last few years. A4s and A8s werent much better. A6s were recalled 3 times to fix the same ignition coil problem.
The ML320 was actually around before the RX300, and when BMW saw what was happening, the jumped on the bandwagon in '00 with the X5, followed by Acura and Volvo. What was Audi's response? An A6 Avant with some body cladding and an adjustable suspension. If you walked in to a showroom today, pretty much the only luxury brands you cannot buy an SUV from are Audi and Jaguar. They are responding to a 1998 phenominon in 2006. American's wanted more, larger cupholders (and NOT in the dashboard) for years, and Audi always stonewalled, saying "its not a German thing". Well, this isnt Germany. I think its taken Audi way too long to figure that out.
#4158 of 10348 RE: Eye of the beholder seems to be part of the issue. . . [mg808]
Oct 07, 2005 (2:54 pm)
Nice decision to purchase the RL...I know you must have agonized over that decision...in the end what was the bottom line that closed the deal for you? Was it really only the price tag?
#4159 of 10348 Re: My thoughts on Audi's US sales problem [lexusguy]
Oct 07, 2005 (3:02 pm)
after reading all about the differences of opinion on this forum you get my vote for cutting through all the BS. AS USUAL.
#4160 of 10348 Re: Eye of the beholder seems to be part of the issue. . . [rich545]
Oct 07, 2005 (3:09 pm)
Absolutely! My neigbor in his 996 Turbo sure is NOT going to get to work faster in Atlanta AM traffic than I can in my e39! Rarely are these cars pushed to the limit in 99% of the real world conditions we live in.
That said, on the race track, mere seconds can separate who stands on the podium and who goes home. Sometimes, performance can be measured in minute increments of total balance, not just hard 0-60 times. All of these cars have a variety of strengths that appeal to their buyers... personally, I can justify why I bought a 2003 530SP and continue to enjoy it more today than on day 1.
Sometimes, these discussions sound like art critics sitting around extolling the virtues of their favorite artists and respective styles. Is Picasso really "better" than Gauguin? Monet better than Rembrandt?...
All I can say is this... I'll take my little BMW and go up against any other LPS in its class on Road Atlanta for a 100 mile race and like my chances! The fact that I have a terrific driving experience (for me, anyway) around town is just icing on the cake. BTW, I have spent a fair amount of time in Germany - drove the e60 in the Black Forest region out of Karlsruhe prior to the US introduction. Left me kinda cool at 1st, but as I've driven them here, have warmed up to them, especially the new 530 and 545/550.
My German friends have told me I have the very car they would want to own if given an option, but that is a small sampling. Still not ready to part with my immaculate '03 530SP, but when the time comes, not sure that my personal tastes will lead me into an Audi showroom for anything but the A8! Agree that it is a shame that more luxury buyers have not found themselves in A8's. BMW, to their credit, builds the best-balanced performing line of cars top to bottom - IMHO.
#4161 of 10348 Re: Eye of the beholder seems to be part of the issue. . . [lovemyclk]
Oct 07, 2005 (3:32 pm)
The A8 just has no street credibility. Perhaps it should, but it doesnt. In the full size lux class, thats a serious problem. I think it may have a lot to do with the last A8, which was basically a super-size A4 that couldnt play in the big leagues. When I was in San Remo and Monaco, there were A4s all over the place (I was in one) but A6s were fewer than Es and 5s, and A8s were non existant.
#4162 of 10348 Re: Eye of the beholder seems to be part of the issue. . . [lovemyclk]
Oct 07, 2005 (3:49 pm)
#4163 of 10348 Re: Eye of the beholder seems to be part of the issue. . . [lexusguy]
Oct 07, 2005 (3:52 pm)
I hate it when you do that.
The SUV thing is dead on of course, no matter how much it galls me to admit it. I personally hate the damn things, even the car-based ones. I spent some forced time in an RX330, and I will never, ever understand why someone would want to drive that or an X5 or an XC-90 or any of 'em daily. You can't get much more detached from the driving experience than that.
But of course your point is correct.
Also on the A8. As much as I may think of it as the cream of the current crop in that class, it remains kind of an unknown, and past history is very likely why.
You good fer nuthin' so and so...