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Luxury Performance Sedans

10007 messages,  Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 7:40 AM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan


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#2207 of 10007
Re: Image by Brand [hpowders] by cstiles
May 16, 2005 (5:29 am)
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Replying to: hpowders (May 12, 2005 3:52 pm)

I'm sure there are many 5 and 7-series owners who may disagree, but IMO, the brand image of BMW skews younger compared to their most direct competition---Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus. This is also explained by the fact that something like 70% of their sales come from the 3-series.
 
IMO, compared to Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus, BMW is also perceived to have a greater focus on driving dynamics and speed. (Something about "The Ultimate Driving Machine.") Hence, the younger skew.
 
Thanks to the success of the A4, the perception and demographics behind the Audi brand is also skewing younger over the past 7 years. Infiniti is scratching into BMW's backyard, although they still have a long way to go. Acura is far more of a mix, since their product line runs the gamut from RSX to RL (with a tiny dash of NSX), and obviously skews most toward FWD. But of all of the brands, I believe Acura offers the most models with manual transmissions (4 out of 6).
 
Just my opinion. That and 50 more cents will buy you a cup of coffee....
#2208 of 10007
Re: Handling: 3 vs 5 [designman] by rich545
May 16, 2005 (5:35 am)
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Replying to: designman (May 14, 2005 9:52 am)

I guess what I'd like to see is numbers to support that. I understand the physics behind it, but a) I'm not so sure the respective suspensions are equal and b) the 5 is only slightly taller than the 3 (like 3 inches) plus it is wider. As you pointed out the weight difference may be the deciding factor with the 325i with sport weighing in at 3351 lbs and the 545i with sport at 3803 lbs. I agree that it would be nice to know exactly what the CG is on both. I don't really know what would prove all of this out. Skid plate numbers maybe? I guess it all doesn't really matter much because in real-world driving you aren't going to encounter many turns that really scare either the 5 or 3. One thing I didn't realize that kdfx pointed out is that the sport package on the 330xi only involves aerodynamics, not suspension. You can bet your local salesperson would never volunteer that bit of info (if they even were aware of it). Maybe that's why I feel like my 545 significantly outhandles my former 330xi.
#2209 of 10007
Re: Handling: 3 vs 5 [rich545] by cstiles
May 16, 2005 (5:57 am)
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Replying to: rich545 (May 16, 2005 5:35 am)

Are you comparing the handling differences between a RWD 5-series and an AWD 3-series? I would think it would be obvious that in that comparo, the 5 would outhandle the 3. But that doesn't mean the 5 generally outhandles the 3 does it?
#2210 of 10007
Re: Image by Brand [cstiles] by jjacura
May 16, 2005 (6:12 am)
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Replying to: cstiles (May 16, 2005 5:29 am)

Some excellant observations Cstiles......(Very Acura8) .... and this is just an observation but some of us may pay a little more for our coffee...$1.68 Starbucks in my own travel mug....or $1.56 Caribou which is a relatively new coffee chain originating out of Minneapolis.
#2211 of 10007
Re: Handling: 3 vs 5 [cstiles] by rich545
May 16, 2005 (6:35 am)
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Replying to: cstiles (May 16, 2005 5:57 am)

What I'd really like to see is handling stats for the 545i with SP and the 325i with SP. Everyone that says the 3 would outhandle the 5 might be 100% correct. I'd just like to see that backed up by something other than general physics which don't take into account differences between the two cars in terms of design. Maybe there aren't enough difference for the 5 to make up the weight difference. All I'm saying is I'd like to see just how much of an edge the 3 would have if it has one at all.
#2212 of 10007
Re: Image by Brand [jjacura] by cstiles
May 16, 2005 (6:46 am)
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Replying to: jjacura (May 16, 2005 6:12 am)

You know, I just spent $3.00 for a Spiced Chai Latte this morning, so I'm also guilty as charged!
 
We took the RL to St. Louis last weekend for the Lenny Kravitz concert, and the car was great. I averaged 80 mph and got 23mpg, with 4 passengers and overnight luggage. Bob Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" in 5.1 Surround Sound in SACD format also sounded pretty amazing. The NAV system also helped us maneuver around an accident in downtown St. Louis so all in all it was great.
 
And no speeding tickets, either. A white RL doesn't exactly stand out like a black M45 Sport with shiny 19 inch dubs. I seriously wouldn't be shocked if I saw an M45 with spinners!
#2213 of 10007
Re: 5 vs. 3 [lexusguy] by rich545
May 16, 2005 (6:48 am)
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Replying to: lexusguy (May 14, 2005 1:01 pm)

BTW, the 7 does not have more HP unless you are taking about the 760 (and 95% of 7's you see are 745's). The 745 and 545 have the same engine. The smaller car with ALWAYS outhandle the larger car IF all things are equal. All I'm saying is that I'm not sure they are. Maybe enough things are equal to give the 3 the edge. Maybe not. I'd just like to see proof in the form of numbers.
#2214 of 10007
Guessing. . . by markcincinnati
May 16, 2005 (7:01 am)
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. . .I would assume that the 330xi (when it comes out later this year) would out handle the 530i and 530xi. However, despite my AWD bias, I am not saying this because of the AWD. The wheelbase, weight and perhaps the power to weight ratio would seem to favor the 3 series.
 
I just configured a 530xi as minimally as I would want it and it comes to about $55K (without extra charge paint) -- and it claims to be offered for a 36 month lease 12K miles per year with a $2,500 cap cost reduction $802 per month -- we're now back in 2005 Audi A6 3.2 territory, if this holds constant (which it probably won't). The M35X is starting to be a candidate for inclusion in the "old saying":
 
Mercedes - Old Money
BMW - New Money
Audi - Smart Money (past tense)
 
Honorable "smart money" mention: Infiniti's 2006 M's (and from where I sit, the M35X seems "really, really smart.")
 
Infiniti may never rise to inclusion in the German Money group, I have no clue -- but at present the Infiniti has replaced Audi as "the value leader." Now if it ever earns even a little prestige. . .well, it might happen, someday, perhaps, maybe, OK not likely, but not impossible.
#2215 of 10007
Re: Handling: 3 vs 5 [rich545] by hpowders
May 16, 2005 (8:56 am)
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Replying to: rich545 (May 16, 2005 5:35 am)

You don't need numbers. Just visit your local, friendly, jack up the money factor BMW dealer and drive a 325 or 330 fast around the curves. Then do the same in your vehicle.
You'll see what I am talking about.
#2216 of 10007
Re: Image by Brand [cstiles] by jjacura
May 16, 2005 (9:01 am)
Reply

Replying to: cstiles (May 16, 2005 6:46 am)

cstiles, My wife drinks Chai Lattes while I "keep it simple stupid" with regular caffinated Kenya AA if I can get it fresh from Caribou. Your run to St. Louis touched off some fun memories of the kind of music I enjoy. and as far as the black M45 with the addition of "Spinners" ...it cracked me up.
 
and an addition to Marks observations:
Mercedes - Old Money
BMW - New Money
Audi - Smart Money (past tense)
          Honorable "smart money" mention: Infiniti's 2006 M's
 
RL- Money Winner (Complete Package)

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