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Luxury Performance Sedans

10007 messages,  Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 7:40 AM

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What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan

#2013 of 10007 Re: nebraskaguy [kdshapiro] by kyfdx HOST May 04, 2005 (7:28 pm)
Replying to: kdshapiro (May 04, 2005 4:50 pm) With winter tires, my RWD will out-do almost any FWD...   That said, the BMWs of the '90s (and '80s and '70s) gave them their well-deserved reputation.. My first BMW driving experience was my girlfriend's '79 320i.. A very nice car, but you might as well leave it in the garage if it snowed...   The current RWD BMWs with traction control and winter tires make for good transportation, even in snowy, hilly areas.... The biggest problem is with ground clearance in heavy snow..   regards, kyfdx
#2014 of 10007 Re: nebraskaguy [lexusguy] by markcincinnati May 04, 2005 (7:34 pm)
Replying to: lexusguy (May 04, 2005 3:52 pm) Most folks for whatever reason anymore do not even consider seasonal tires. If the car comes with 255 x 40 x 17" tires, summer only -- well, then they use these year round.   Winter tires plus traction control would do fine here in Cincinnati, most of the time.   AWD with All Seasons will do well virtually all of the time.   I'm often wrong (but never uncertain), but I do believe AWD will in part prosper for the same reason auto trans is the chosen transmission.   Arguing the relative merits of RWD, FWD and AWD can be done and there certainly are circumstances where 2 driven wheels are mostly fine.   However, 4 driven wheels is, I think, destined to become (if it has not already) one of the fastest growth "engines" for cars of all classes.   There is a forum "AWD the next big thing" or something like that -- Dr. Piech some 25 years ago said AWD for safety, traction and performance. It seems there is sufficient evidence (when BMW and Mercedes BOTH are growing the AWD offering) that this was an accurate prediction. Replies to this message: kyfdx (May 04, 2005 7:38 pm) rich545 (May 05, 2005 5:19 am) pearl (May 05, 2005 5:04 pm)
#2015 of 10007 Re: nebraskaguy [markcincinnati] by kyfdx HOST May 04, 2005 (7:38 pm)
Replying to: markcincinnati (May 04, 2005 7:34 pm) You are right about the tires... Less than 1% of people get winter tires.. Most people would pay $2K extra for AWD, add 200 lbs. of extra weight, get worse fuel mileage and impair the handling of their vehicle, just to save two trips to the tire store per year and to keep those four extra tires out of their basement/garage..   Just tweaking you a little... My other car is AWD, as were the three before this one.... But, there is a grain of truth there...   regards, kyfdx
#2016 of 10007 markcincinnati, kyfdx by lexusguy May 04, 2005 (9:03 pm)
I definitely wouldn't mind if Lexus offered an AWD version of the LS. In fact, I would probably buy it over a RWD version. Its just not enough of a benefit for me to get an A8 over an LS430 though, especially since I have my wife's AWD RX300 if I need it. Its unfortunate that most people dont consider winter tires. I've tried the Artic Alpins and Blizzaks. The Michelins arent bad, but the Bridgestones, at least in my experience and with my car, do an outstanding job.   I believe that there will continue to be a market for "pure" RWD cars for quite some time, but I think AWD will replace FWD on a large scale. Cars like the Nissan Maxima, Acura TL, and the increasingly large number of other models putting 260hp or more to the front wheels NEED AWD. Replies to this message: merc1 (May 04, 2005 9:40 pm) markcincinnati (May 05, 2005 9:44 am)
#2017 of 10007 Re: markcincinnati, kyfdx [lexusguy] by merc1 May 04, 2005 (9:40 pm)
Replying to: lexusguy (May 04, 2005 9:03 pm) Is there really any German car you'd buy?   M
#2018 of 10007 merc1 by lexusguy May 04, 2005 (10:11 pm)
Yes. Just not to replace my LS430. I've made comments about this before, I'm just not willing to sacrifice the big Lexus' awesome comfort, ease of use, and reliability for a few smiles in the curves. As a get-to-work car and highway cruiser, the LS is unbeatable.   I would definitely (and have in the past) considered a German weekend car though, but until recently, there wasnt much to look at from them. I wasnt interested in the Z3, SLK320, or TT. I thought the CLK430 was too plain, and while the CLK500 is definitely better, its styling still pales in comparison to the XKR, and I'm not a fan of COMAND. I'd definitely trade for an SL500 in a minute, but obviously there's a tremendous difference in depreciation between the Jag and Mercedes, which makes late model used XKs actually affordable.
#2019 of 10007 Are they worth the money? by nmdriver May 04, 2005 (10:23 pm)
I drive 40,000 miles a year. 20,000 of this is long distance interstate driving. We have always had an upscale car for this driving. (BMW 3.0S, 5 series, Lexus LS, Audi A8, Audi Allroad). Last fall we sold the Allroad. I knew that a new crop of 5 series competitors would be coming out in the spring, and we had just bought two 2005 turbocharged Subarus: A manual Legacy GT Limited, and an auto Outback XT Limited. We figured that we would use the Subarus as travel cars until the new cars came out. (We had swapped out the terrible standard tires on both Subies for quieter and better gripping tires.)       It turned out that we liked the Outback better than the Audi! The Audi had a little less wind noise and some fancier trim. In every other respect: ride, handling, comfort, steering, build quality, fuel economy, etc. the Outback is as good or better than the Audi -- even though the Audi had cost 50% more!      Now, I am shopping the new crop of $40K-plus cars. I am only looking at 6 cyl AWD.      I started out wanting an Acura RL. It looks like a larger Honda, but it has the only Sat Nav I would actually pay money for, cushy seats, cushy ride, great stereo etc. It still drives more like a front wheel drive car, but I could live with this. However: the transmission lags on downshifts, followed by a surge forward when it finally shifts. Not cool. And, although the car is generally quiet, it turned out to be incredibly noisy when it encountered sharp road noises: coarse surfaces and when going over expansion joints etc.      The GS 300 is quieter and smoother -- but not as quiet as I expected. (Probably the run-flat tires on the AWD model). It also removes most of the feeling from driving. I will have to drive it again to see if it grows on me.      The M35x was the surprise. It is nearly as quiet as the Lexus, but it has an athletic balance and eagerness which neither of the others (or the Audi A6) have. I hate the Nav system and would certainly buy the car without it.      But, here is the rub: a base M35X is 60% more expensive than the comparably-equipped Outback Limited. It has less wind noise, somewhat more room in the rear seat, has rosewood trim and is available with options like a high end stereo, sat nav. and sat radio not available on Subarus. But, it is not built a bit better, it does not ride as well, the simpler Subaru has better ergonomics and will probably be more reliable. Of course, the lower M35 handles better -- but the difference is less than I expected.      My Subaru GT Limited is far more of a sports car than the M35. The closest M would be the M45 Sport. But this is not available in AWD, does not ride as well as the Subaru, is no quieter than the Subaru, and is simply not as much fun to drive. Oh, it also costs more than $20,000 more.      It used to be that you would move from a mid-range car to an upscale car and think: "Wow! This really is a different class of car!" But the mid-range cars have gotten so good that the differences in how the car rides and drives are now are much more subtle. I may still buy the M -- or the GS -- or the RL. But I am really having to think about it.
#2020 of 10007 nmdriver by lexusguy May 04, 2005 (11:21 pm)
If you really like the Subies, stick with them. Subaru JD power IQ really surged this year, they actually beat out Lexus! I assume AWD is a must. What do you think of the G35x or A4 3.0? Replies to this message: nmdriver (May 05, 2005 4:05 pm) cdnpinhead (May 05, 2005 4:46 pm) kdshapiro (May 05, 2005 5:01 pm) commofficer (May 05, 2005 6:02 pm) nmdriver (May 05, 2005 8:27 pm)
#2021 of 10007 Re: nebraskaguy [markcincinnati] by rich545 May 05, 2005 (5:19 am)
Replying to: markcincinnati (May 04, 2005 7:34 pm) I think that you're right about AWD. Obviously, my 545 is RWD, and it was flawless in the snow this winter with winter tires. In fact, I was amazed at how well it did given that I traded in an '03 330xi for it. I actually think the 5 did better than the AWD 3, and we got more snow in Chicago this winter than the one before (still not really THAT much snow though). I'm sure that the 330xi with snow tires rather than all-season tires would have been unstoppable though. Having said all of that though, if the 545 had been offered with AWD I would have gotten it instead of the RWD version. I don't think that BMW at this point has any plans for an AWD 545 though which is unfortunate. Who knows, if the 530xi sells really well (I think it will because when the 330xi came out my salesperson at the time in NY told me that interest in the RWD 330i dropped to an almost insignificant level) maybe they will have AWD as an option on all of their cars. Talk about bullheaded Germans though! Both of their primary competitors (MB and Audi) offer AWD on all of their models, but BMW has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the world of AWD. I will say though that the fact that there is so much debate on the merits of AWD vs. RWD would seem to indicate that the jury is still out at least to some degree about which is better. Maybe people like AWD more because they at least feel like it's safer than a RWD car with winter tires whether or not it really is. I'm a prefect example of this. I have a RWD car with winter tires, have no problem with switching them twice a year or storing them, but I'd still choose AWD over RWD. Replies to this message: pearl (May 05, 2005 5:04 pm)
#2022 of 10007 More on AWD... by kyfdx HOST May 05, 2005 (5:35 am)
I will say... What is really nice about the latest crop of AWD, is the cars default operation is basically RWD, with the fronts only kicking in when needed.. I think this gives better handling and better road feel... I know this is the way the Infiniti and the new 5-series work... I think the Lexus is the same way... Not the case with the Acura, though....

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