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Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

3018 messages,  Last post on Feb 22, 2013 at 11:54 AM

You are in the Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ Forum.

What is this discussion about? Lincoln Zephyr, Lincoln MKZ, Sedan

Messages Page 299 of 302

#2980 of 3018 Re: The tests are trickling out now [gregg_vw] by akirby

Dec 01, 2012 (4:01 pm)

Replying to: gregg_vw (Dec 01, 2012 10:37 am)
I'm not ripping on the ES350 because it shares a Toyota platform. I'm saying that the writers almost never mention that fact when talking about a Lexus. Yet with Lincoln they give it an entire page. That criticism was warranted with the old MKZ but not the new one. Get over it already. It's like they have that line already pre-written for every Lincoln they review.
 
As long as they're unique vehicles it doesn't matter what platform they started with.
 
I know the AW review was positive which is why it's so frustrating.

#2981 of 3018 I like the new MKZ very much, and it might be better than the new ES by empoweredbc

Dec 02, 2012 (8:58 pm)

But the new Avalon, I have a feeling, will be better than both.
 
Motor Trend fell in love with Avalon when they tested it for Car of the Year, saying it was the car that most surprised them. And it gets 25 MPG combined with the V6.
 
I have a problem with these new Ford hybrids getting nowhere near 47 MPG. They are getting pretty much what the 2012's got. No more.
 
There are no losers at this party, but I think Lincoln will have a similar start to Cadillac's ATS, which sold only 1200 in it's first full month. But I believe it will build a following as it goes through it's lifecycle. It seems like a solid new entry, but the weak Lincoln brand, and horrible Lincoln dealerships, is probably what will hurt it the most at the start.

#2982 of 3018 Re: I like the new MKZ very much, and it might be better than the new ES [empoweredbc] by akirby

Dec 03, 2012 (7:21 am)

Replying to: empoweredbc (Dec 02, 2012 8:58 pm)
There are several 2013 Fusion hybrid owners reporting 47 mpg and higher. It all depends on how you drive it. A lot of these new owners are not used to driving a hybrid for max fuel economy.

#2983 of 3018 Yet another review by gregg_vw

Dec 07, 2012 (12:44 pm)

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/07/2013-lincoln-mkz-first-drive-review-video/#co- ntinued
 
"Lincoln doesn't want anyone to think of its newest offering as a redesigned Ford Fusion with boosted luxury appointments and a $15,000 price premium, but the reality remains hard to ignore. A sinking feeling in our stomachs tells us this MKZ is still not distinct enough to buoy the luxury brand."

#2984 of 3018 Re: Yet another review [gregg_vw] by akirby

Dec 07, 2012 (2:53 pm)

Replying to: gregg_vw (Dec 07, 2012 12:44 pm)
Not a bad review actually. This is my only gripe:
 
Our conclusion, after taking the Audi A6, BMW 5 Series, Cadillac CTS and Lexus ES into consideration, is that the 2013 MKZ falls short. There are significant compromises (second row comfort, small trunk, ergonomic gripes and a thirsty V6 to name a few) keeping it off our most-wanted list.
 
Out of those vehicles, only the Lexus gets better fuel economy, none have a bigger trunk.
 
I wish they'd just say "we like the other ones better" instead of trying to make up objective reasons that aren't really accurate.
 
This is not a world beater - just a significant improvement over the old model that should increase sales considerably and should at least stop the "rebadge" references.

#2985 of 3018 Re: Yet another review [akirby] by gregg_vw

Dec 07, 2012 (3:22 pm)

Replying to: akirby (Dec 07, 2012 2:53 pm)
This is not a world beater - just a significant improvement over the old model that should increase sales considerably and should at least stop the "rebadge" references.
 
Agreed. However, it again underscores the slow learning at Ford about Lincoln. Each vehicle issued in the 2000's was designed to perk up Lincoln. The MKZ, MKX, MKS, MKT all failed to grab imaginations, and the Navigator just rotted.
 
The new MKZ has more of a chance, simply because it is not homely like the MKS, not ugly like the MKT, not non-descript like the former MKZ, and not a Ford with different front and rear clips like the MKX. This MKZ could have been the Kia Optima-type change of this class, given the seven year model year run of the previous iteration.
 
A world beater is what they ought to build to save the brand, and they still haven't quite learned that part of turning things around. It is not enough that the car is as good or better than the ES350. The ES350 already has a large customer base.
 
Lincoln also mentions plans for unique engines, but has managed to deliver none so far. The hybrid and 2.0 liter are available in the Fusion for example, and the 3.7 is in the Mustang and the F150. Yes, GM does the same thing, but GM didn't claim they would do otherwise.
 
I don't understand how talking about what will be for the last dozen years has done anything for Lincoln. Surprise us. Do something unexpected. Stop with the "we plan to do this or that" stuff. Just do it.

#2986 of 3018 Re: Yet another review [gregg_vw] by akirby

Dec 07, 2012 (7:54 pm)

Replying to: gregg_vw (Dec 07, 2012 3:22 pm)
Once again you're confusing what's been said and done in the past with what's being said and done today. The current plan for Lincoln and the current management team has only been in place for 18 months. The MkZ styling was already set in stone with very little room for change. The new Lincoln specific drivetrains are still being developed.
 
You should give the new guys a chance to prove they can do something different. And they need a couple more years to do it. I don't see this new plan as anything like the old ones. I believe one reason they seem to be moving slowly is they're trying to do it right the first time (this go round at least) so they're being more methodical than some might like. I also think they were given a limited budget and resources to work within because at the end of the day Lincoln has to make money.
 
Am I making excuses? Maybe. When we see the new dealerships and the next 2 new vehicles we'll know for sure. In the meantime a little progress is better than none.
 
The MKZ is the best vehicle that Lincoln has produced in at least the last 30 years. They should get some credit for that.

#2987 of 3018 Re: Yet another review [akirby] by gregg_vw

Dec 08, 2012 (8:43 am)

Replying to: akirby (Dec 07, 2012 7:54 pm)
The MKZ is the best vehicle that Lincoln has produced in at least the last 30 years.
 
It seems to be a good vehicle and probably as good or better than the ES350. I will give them credit for that.
 
However, for its time, and put against other cars of its time, the 2000 Lincoln LS was arguably the best Lincoln in the past 30 years. It received very good press, and it won the Car of the Year award. It tested well against the competition and came in at a better price than most.
 
Even the 1993 Mark VIII with RWD, independent suspension, and DOHC 32 valve V8 (when the competition was still mostly marketing OHV V8s), was probably as good in its time as the new MKZ is now. The problem with the VIII (in addition to some long-term reliability issues) was that it was introduced at a time when grand touring luxury coupes--indeed, all sorts of 2 door coupes--were beginning to fall out of favor as the market moved toward other types of specialty luxury vehicles (SUVs, and sport versions of sedans).
 
Heck, the 1991 Town Car, with its superior styling, interior space, SOHC V8. dual airbags and anti-lock brakes was superior to the FWD deVille, Park Avenue, 98, and of course the New Yorker.
 
The new Lexus LS of that era was really in a class above, but was initially sold at a very low price for its class (that wasn't that much higher than the Lincoln) in order to establish sales, market share and reputation--a move that succeeded brilliantly. But I digress.
 
A little progress is better than none until it begins to feel like damning with faint praise. Therein the problem: Lincoln has screwed around with comeback plans and concepts and marketing ploys for the last dozen years and it isn't as if the auto press has not noticed. So skepticism is to be expected and weathered, because that skepticism was well-earned. Real damage was created when they tried to force something into place that should not have been there.
 
I do not believe the situation is hopeless. Lincoln needs to move out of its own way to get a clearer view. It is very hard to find what you don't know you are searching for.
 
One thing is clear: to begin to be a viable and respected luxury company, they have to set a goal of building the best cars in their class. Because a lot of their competition already have the same goal. Despite that goal, obviously all can't rise to the top. But those with that goal have a better chance of staying in the game.

#2988 of 3018 Re: Yet another review [gregg_vw] by akirby

Dec 08, 2012 (10:43 am)

Replying to: gregg_vw (Dec 08, 2012 8:43 am)
The LS was the best handling Lincoln in 30 years and would maybe outhandle the MKZ (the electronic suspension might give it a slight edge even with the worse weight distribution). But it was nowhere near as good of a luxury car as the MKZ. Remember I drove a 2000 LS v8 for 6 years. The drivetrain was silky smooth but it only had 252 hp (later upped to 280 or so) - far short of the MKZ 3.7L V6. The LS had none of the luxury features that the MKZ has (or even the Fusion for that matter). MLT, adaptive cruise, park assist, BLIS, etc. etc. etc. And the interior materials are not even close. The LS was cheap. Nice but cheap. I had to put fake wood on the dash to cover the cheap black plastic. Don't get me wrong here - I really liked the LS overall. But as a modern luxury car there is no comparison.
 
I agree they need to build best in class vehicles - eventually. I just think they have a few years to get there.

#2989 of 3018 Re: Yet another review [akirby] by gregg_vw

Dec 08, 2012 (11:47 am)

Replying to: akirby (Dec 08, 2012 10:43 am)
Oh, geez. You CANNOT directly compare a 13 year old car to one just released. Of course the MKZ is better from that standpoint, but that is saying nothing about the goodness or impact of the Lincoln LS in its time. Just like with inflation adjustments, you must look at what was available and possible at the time the car was created.
 
With few exceptions, all cars sold today are reasonably good to great. Compared to cars of the past, they have more equipment, better interior materials, greater safety, better tires, better sound insulation, better chassis rigidity, etc. The MKZ today being good enough or "better than a ES350" is hardly in the same league of goodness that the LS had in 2000.
 
The new MKZ, even FWD based, could have made the same impact, but does not. It's this ongoing thinking that they have a few years to get there that keeps Lincoln second-rate, despite having some good vehicles for sale.
 
Granted, the Zephyr was stop-gap for a starved brand back in 2005. For what little impact changing the grill a couple times and the rear end styling had over the seven years of the first iteration, they could have taken those funds and added them to the effort to create the very best car they could the second time around.
 
I just do not understand how such limited thinking professionals continued to get nice salaries and bonuses for so long while turning in such unremarkable efforts for Lincoln for so many years. Where were the car guys in this?
 
When I first saw the concept for the MKS years ago, I said, "Oh, no!, that would be a mistake...just look at it!" And who am I? Nobody. When I saw how they screwed up the MKT concept by modifying it into the whale of a station wagon it is today, I was like, "please don't!" The concept was edgier, prettier and more provocative. I remember protesting how they changed the Lincoln concept vehicle for the MKX into an Edge with a Lincoln clip, and you argued that the concept and the MKX looked practically the same and no one would notice.
 
Well, people do notice daring styling, and they notice when styling is bland, but daring usually has to come first to establish a foothold.
 
I repeat: to begin to be a viable and respected luxury company, Lincoln must set a goal of building the best cars in their class. Anything less is just wasted effort until they do so. Holding on to their little market share, or waiting until Lincoln itself generates enough profits to really introduce outstanding iron will not get them much further than it has in the past many years of tweaking things.
 
I have to believe the new new new Lincoln team has finally gotten the memo. But I also know that as more luxury offerings are being created worldwide, other models and makes will continue to go under. It is the nature of the business.

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