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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions What type of hybrid should I buy? 
453 messages, Last post on Aug 19, 2005 at 6:05 PM
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Until I get it cleaned up and the participants decide to stick to the topic. This is NOT a discussion of the performance of hybrids vs ICE. And beating on each other is not "fun". Temporary timeout until I sort this out and send the appropriate emails... PF Flyer Host Pickups & News & Views Message Boards |
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One of the things that cause the most problems in these online forums is trying to "prove" something to the other side. Almost never... actually I can't think of a time when that has EVER happened where someone took a position in a topic and came around to the other user's way of thinking and said, "Gosh, you're right and i was wrong all this time." The point is, you have to stop trying to PROVE things. Stop taking quotes from each other's posts and commenting on them line by line. You want to disagree, great. make YOUR point and move on. Everyone has their turf staked out and no amount of semantics is going to pry them out of it, so stop trying. Let's have a DISCUSSION here about "What type of hybrid should I buy?" We have more than enough hybrid enthusiasts here who are well informed enough that this COULD be a great source of information for someone who is considering a hybrid and is looking to find out more about them from people rather than advertising. But this keeps degrading into this personal battle between the same people, making the same points about a topic that is now history. If you have a personal beef with someone, I don't care what it's about, the message boards and topics in Town Hall are not the place to use as your battleground. Emails still come to me from new users saying they'd love to get into some of these discussions, but they don't want to walk into the middle of some of the nonsense that goes on like THIS. This post will no doubt move some of you into "But HE started it" mode. That really doesn't matter to me. My job is to keep things running in a relatively civil manner here. If you want to say "HE started it", I'll be more than happy to discuss that, or any other issue about how the boards are run with you in email. Hopefully that clears up where we stand here. Now... assuming I'm in the market... What type of hybrid SHOULD I buy??? PF Flyer Host Pickups & News & Views Message Boards |
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Honda calls their hybrid system "Assist", which uses one motor to accomplish all electrical tasks. The design uses an electric motor to supplement thrust when the gas engine is in an efficient state, like when accelerating. The primary source of electricity for the battery-pack is regeneration from braking. The secondary source is charging via the gas engine; this causes MPG to decrease, but fortunately it isn't needed often. Toyota calls their hybrid system "HSD" (Hybrid Synergy Drive), which uses two motors to accomplish the electrical tasks. Having a second motor available allows for the ability to both generate & consume electricity at the same time. This allows the gas engine to run at a more efficient state by using electricity generation as an offset of optimum RPM. Some of the electricity is used as power for electric thrust, the remaining is used for recharging the battery-pack. So recharging via braking is not the primary source of electricity, the engine is. This also means the battery-pack is not always need power the electric motor. The two motor design provides for much more electrical thrust than a single motor design, since the battery-pack charge-level typically remains near full. This, along with the power-split device that connects the motors & engine, accommodates the ability to drive exclusively using electricity. That ability, which owners call "Stealth", is the reason MPG can be so high for city driving. JOHN |
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| Does anybody have details on their upcoming diesel/electric hybrids? | |
| MT (4/04 I think) had a photo and brief story on a Mercedes concept hybrid that looked like a 5-door hatchback or wagon. I saw the same car in another magazine that said the vehicle was slated for production by the end of 2004--which seems unlikely given the concept status and the fact so little has been seen about it. | |
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In the continued vein of platform sharing, Mercedes is introducing what is basically a Lux version of the Chrysler Pacifica. The "Vision Grand Sports Tourer" Links: http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0401/06/c08-28051.htm "The GST concept featured a diesel hybrid powertrain, which COULD come as an option on the U.S. model. The combination V-8 engine and electric motor delivers 314 horsepower and gets 30 miles per gallon" http://autoshow.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/100916/page029- .html?tid=edmunds.e.autoshow..leftnav.30.* "the Vision is motivated by a V8 diesel hybrid that combines incredible fuel efficiency with sport sedan performance. The fuel economy goal for the Vision is 33 mpg, but numbers as high as 35 have been suggested. Not impressed by a fuel-sipping Benz? The car's performance stats should impress skeptics and enthusiasts alike. With a 0-to-60-mph time of about 6.5 seconds, the 30 mpg figure seems all the more impressive." http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,173&sid=173&a- mp;article=6695 "The concept is driven by a diesel-electric hybrid engine that is mated to a seven-speed automatic transmission. The new diesel-electric hybrid mill, according to Mercedes-Benz spokesman Rob Moran, is a combination of the company's diesel 4.0-liter V-8, available with S-Class models sold in Europe, and a 50-kilowatt electric motor installed to assist propulsion. The combination allows the powertrain to turn out 313 hp and 621 lb-ft of torque. Mercedes claims its diesel-electric hybrid engine will consume about 20 percent less fuel under standard driving than a conventional diesel, and if the engine is included in production plans it would be the only full-fledged hybrid in the United States with eight cylinders and diesel technology." |
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Hi All: ___Since the 04 Prius isn’t coming anywhere near what it is EPA rated for city driving, it really doesn’t matter that it has 1, 2 or even more motors. The Honda Hybrid’s are ahead in mpg task and when purchased used, are a much better overall deal. ___Here is what the 2 seat Honda Insight is capable of through the Chicago tollway and Interstate system on a 58 degree day with higher then rated pressure in the OEM tires. http://barnson.org/misc/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=albu- m06&id=Small_100_3_MPG http://barnson.org/misc/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=albu- m06&id=Small_100_3_MPG_LMPG_Odometer http://barnson.org/misc/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=albu- m06&id=Small_100_3_MPG_Segment_Tank_Mileage_Distance ___I can’t link the real mileage database over at Greenhybrid or over at John1701a’s site but it is on the order of 46 - 47 mpg overall. The possible reason for Toyota’s sky high EPA estimates being missed by such a large margin are two fold. 1. The 04 Prius is in EV mode accounts for > 50% of the EPA’s city cycle. The EPA has no way to account for a fully charged pack at the beginning of the cycle and the pack not being fully charged at the end. 2. The std. EPA estimate disclaimer as follows for all vehicles. I included the Prius sticker since that is one most might consider … Actual mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits and vehicles condition. Results reported to the EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 51 and 69 in the city and 43 and 59 on the highway. ___As has been posted around the net, very few are even touching EPA estimates in the 04 Prius and it cannot be explained away with the statement that most cars do not meet EPA estimates. The problem is two fold as explained above … With that, a Hybrid when purchased new won’t ever pay for itself in fuel savings alone at today’s average gas prices. This does not include an eventual pack replacement sometime down the road either. That is if we don’t hit $3.00 - $4.00/gallon or so but not where we are at today … ___As for the cleanliness of the 04 Prius, it depends where you live and the type of fuel you can purchase. In the clean fuel states of California and surrounding areas as well as some N.E. US states, low sulfur gasoline is available today. Within 2 years, all fuel in the US will be mandated to be low sulfur. With that comes the cleaning of America in whatever you drive … In the case of the 04 Prius, it is not cleaner then the CVT based Insight, the CVT or 5-speed based HCH, or even a much less expensive and larger Ford Focus PZEV for that matter. Only in the clean fuel states is the 04 Prius even rated as PZEV. As for GHG emissions (greenhouse gas emissions), the Prius with its apparent 45 - 47 mpg average emits ~ the same as that of a CVT based HCH and more then a 5-speed. It emits on the order of 70 - 80% more CO2 then that of a 5-speed Insight. ___All in all, if you can find a great deal on them used, you may have found a good value. If you pay MSRP or more, you will never recover the initial investment with the fuel savings alone and will sacrifice quite a bit in terms of generally accepted and listed performance attributes as well as the huge initial costs in comparison to many comparable std. ICE based automobiles. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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| What are the known problems with the '04 Prius or HCH ? More for less sounds great but I'm not sure how realistic that is. Heck if the only thing about the '05 Prius is a few hundred more dollars I'd be happy. Don't get me wrong if they come out with quicker 0-60-0 numbers, sports car like handling, higher MPG and lower emmisions & MSRP that would be fine, in fact sign me up ! But like I said that isn't very realistic so by problems I mean leaky radiators bad wheel bearings electrical problems or batteries not holding their charge, xcel mentioned the CEL with the '04 Prius but from what I could tell there was something used during assembly or shipping in the exhaust system that caused the CEL to come on but when that substance burned off the CEL went out, this IMO is not ideal but not a show stopper, same for the rubber bladder that serves as the gas tank. So what do the vehicles not do that they were designed to do ? | |
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Hi Usbseawolf2000: Hybrid racing has two objectives. They are to cross the finishing line first and to achieve highest MPG. Therefore, tuning the car needs a lot more balancing factors involve. ___They may have two objectives but completely missed the target on both counts with the racing Prius. Maybe 30 mpg tops with the hopped up Echo engine vis-à-vis detuned Echo engine in the $20,500 - $26,000 stock 04 Prius and most comparable PZEV’s available would kick the 04 Racing Prius into next week without a single mod and at cost of just 1/3 to ½ the amount spent on any other number of Hybrid’s. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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