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#396 of 453 Re: [motownusa] by backy Dec 06, 2004 (8:09 am)
Replying to: motownusa (Dec 06, 2004 6:52 am) I would not buy a HAH because it's not a fit for my needs. But for people who want a mid-sized sedan with exceptional performance but also sips less gas than cars of comparable size and power, the HAH is the only option right now. I might wonder why someone would need to buy a car that powerful, but it's not for me to judge them.   And I too have a 30-odd step commute to work. When I go into the office, I try to take the bus whenever possible. My car is going to sue me for abandoning it!
#397 of 453 Re: [brightness04] by gagrice Dec 06, 2004 (9:20 am)
Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 06, 2004 8:01 am) So you have the simple math of 200-300% incremental savings in gas to offset 50% or less incremental manufacturing cost. Notice, it's the gallon count that matters not per centage increase in MPG per se.   That seems logical. I wonder if Toyota will publish any kind of LCA on the RX400h as they did on some of their other vehicles. Following that train of thought. The person that buys an Accord V6 and drives 50k miles in 5 years would produce less overall pollution than the person that buys an Accord hybrid and drives 100k miles in the same 5 years. Replies to this message: backy (Dec 06, 2004 9:24 am) gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:40 am) brightness04 (Dec 06, 2004 10:01 am) tempusvn (Dec 06, 2004 10:23 am) brightness04 (Dec 06, 2004 9:29 am)
#398 of 453 Re: [gagrice] by backy Dec 06, 2004 (9:24 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:20 am) Following that train of thought, the person that buys an Accord V6 and drives 1k miles in five years would produce less overall pollution than the person who buys an Accord V6 and drives 50k miles in the same five years. I fail to see your point, or how it relates to which type of hybrid to buy. Replies to this message: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:40 am) brightness04 (Dec 06, 2004 10:01 am) tempusvn (Dec 06, 2004 10:23 am)
#399 of 453 Re: [gagrice] by brightness04 Dec 06, 2004 (9:29 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:20 am) Absolutely. Economizing driving habit is every bit as important as economizing vehicle choice when it comes to overall gas consumption. If one can find 50% reduction in miles driven, pursueing that end probably saves more gas than trying any viable vehicle alternative out there; it's highly doubtful vehicles that consume 100% more gas but offer no addtional funcationality whatsoever (to the owner, not to the green-eyed by-stander) can possibly stay on the market in the long run. It would not surprise me if the majority of vehicles on the market become some sort of hybrid in the next decade or two, like the carberretor to EFI change-over two decades ago.
#400 of 453 Re: [backy] by gagrice Dec 06, 2004 (9:40 am)
Replying to: backy (Dec 06, 2004 9:24 am) It is a continuation of the debate. I say the HAH is not an environmentally sound choice, where the smaller hybrids such as Insight, Prius and HCH are. If the amount of fuel burnt over the life of the vehicle will determine if it is ecologically beneficial, it was put forth that the bigger the hybrid the quicker it will regain that which was lost in the manufacturing process.   That brings me to the last post. If you are a high mileage driver the hybrid is a logical choice over a comparable vehicle. If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle.   The way I see this hybrid choice. If you drive a lot our planet is better off if you drive one of the smaller hybrids than the larger ones. If you walk to work and put less than 10k miles per year on your car you are not helping the environment or your pocket book by getting a hybrid. Replies to this message: brightness04 (Dec 06, 2004 10:01 am) tempusvn (Dec 06, 2004 10:23 am)
#401 of 453 Re: [gagrice] by brightness04 Dec 06, 2004 (10:01 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:40 am) I say the HAH is not an environmentally sound choice, where the smaller hybrids such as Insight, Prius and HCH are.   I say Insight, Prius and HCH are not environmentally sound choices, where the bicycle and sneakers are. Not everyone's transportational requirement can be met with Prius, HCH, and certainly not Insight.   If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle.   The threshold must be extreme because the batteries will in all likelihood be recycled. NiMH is not exactly cheap; even dirt cheap lead acid batteries are recycled.   The way I see this hybrid choice. If you drive a lot our planet is better off if you drive one of the smaller hybrids than the larger ones. If you walk to work and put less than 10k miles per year on your car you are not helping the environment or your pocket book by getting a hybrid.   What if it is one of the most common type of vehicle ownership in America: the car that has to do everything? Do the distance and carry the load, sometimes at the same time but often at different times? As we know, owning two additional small cars just for commute is incredibly wasteful when manufacturing cost is factored in. People are no dummies; most people would not get large vehicles if a smaller one would suffice in their own estimation, even SUV owners (that's why Suburbans only constitute a small minority even among SUVs). Given a vehicle size, hybrid is a great way of economizing gas consumption without giving up utility or performance (so we are promised Besides, helping the environment is not the only reason for getting hybrid, although it's a nice side effect; just like VTEC and EFI, both help the environment and deliver performance in spades.
#402 of 453 Re: [gagrice] by tempusvn Dec 06, 2004 (10:23 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:40 am) gagrice: "That brings me to the last post. If you are a high mileage driver the hybrid is a logical choice over a comparable vehicle. If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle."   Just because you only drive a hybrid for a fraction of its expected life doesn't mean the clock stops on savings when you sell it.   In most cases the life-span of vehicles these days is measured in total miles, not years, and there's no indication that hybrids will have a shorter life-span than their non-hybrid counterparts.   Most cars, hybrid or not, will run for their average life-span even if they are driven by multiple people along the way.   If a Hybrid has a lower environmental footprint from a Life-Cycle standpoint compared to an alternative vehicle, that benefit will accrue to the world whether you drive it or some future used car buyer drives it.
#403 of 453 by xcel Dec 06, 2004 (10:29 am)
Hi All:   ___Escape HEV’s in the real world …   http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/table.php?cat=escape   ___Brightness04, telecommuting and those 30 steps to your work station to save the environment is a great idea except for the fact it takes a China or India based citizen the same 30 steps to his workstation to replace your job and for ~ 1/10 of your wage … Just some food for thought.   ___Good Luck   ___Wayne R. Gerdes
#404 of 453 Buy an HAH if you need by larsb Dec 06, 2004 (10:29 am)
a "larger car" than the Prius and the HCH, and you are in the market for a 4dr sedan in the Accord's price and feature range.   The fact that the HAH gets 29%-42% more MPG than a comparable Accord V6 is just gravy.   Don't buy the HAH if you are looking to get 45 MPG out of a car - it's not THAT kind of Hybrid.

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