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What type of hybrid should I buy? - READ ONLY

453 messages,  Last post on Aug 19, 2005 at 6:05 PM

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#394 of 453
Re: [motownusa] by gagrice
Dec 06, 2004 (7:38 am)

Replying to: motownusa (Dec 06, 2004 5:57 am)

You are right. We have gotten off topic. Since hybrids main purpose is to save gasoline (IMO) I think the Prius and HCH should fit the bill for most prospective buyers
 
I agree with your choices and would add the Insight as the best solo or two person commuter available in the USA.
 
I would argue with the assertion that the hybrid will cause less pollution in the manufacture of AWD. It is the electric motors and batteries that increase the manufacturing emissions. So far the only Life Cycle Assessment I have found came from Toyota for the New Prius. It clearly shows that airborne pollutants created during the manufacturing process of the hybrid to be much higher than the equivalent ICE car. That imbalance will not be in favor of the Prius until they both have been driven close to 100k miles. My conclusion is that the imbalance of the LCA for a car like a RX400h or HAH, could be considerably more than 100k miles. I believe that is much of the holdup with Toyota and the other automakers. Diminishing returns both financially and ecologically.
 
All regulators at EPA & CARB are worried about is the emissions on the finished product. Most of the manufacturing pollution is dumped in another country. Try to build that Prius in CA from raw materials. I'll bet it would never happen.
#395 of 453
Re: [gagrice] by brightness04
Dec 06, 2004 (8:01 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 7:38 am)

Okay, perhaps I did not make myself clear. I did NOT say that the substitution of mechanical AWD with electrical ones in hybrids will necessarily make the overall manufacturing envoronmental cost less than that of an ICE car. I said/meant that the (percentage) incremental cost is less because now instead of having nothing to offset the battery etc. there are the drive shafts and transfercases taken out of the vehicle to offset some of the cost of batteries and electrical motors.
 
As to LCA (life-time cycle assessment), I think the break-even time/mileage horizon will be much shorter on big heavy hybrids like the RX400H than on light showcase vehicles, due to simple math:
The battery and motors in RX400H is only roughly 50% heavier than that of the Prius; to off set that:
replacing a Camry/Corolla with a Prius bumps gas mileage from 30mpg to 40 mpg, saving 100 gallons over a 12k mile year. Replacing a RX330 with an RX400H bumps 18mpg to 30-35mpg, that's anywhere between 270-324 gallons over the same 12k mile year; even at 25mpg, there is a saving of close to 200 gallons.
So you have the simple math of 200-300% incremental savings in gas to offset 50% or less incremental manufacturing cost. Notice, it's the gallon count that matters not per centage increase in MPG per se.
#396 of 453
Re: [motownusa] by backy
Dec 06, 2004 (8:09 am)

Replying to: motownusa (Dec 06, 2004 6:52 am)

I would not buy a HAH because it's not a fit for my needs. But for people who want a mid-sized sedan with exceptional performance but also sips less gas than cars of comparable size and power, the HAH is the only option right now. I might wonder why someone would need to buy a car that powerful, but it's not for me to judge them.
 
And I too have a 30-odd step commute to work. When I go into the office, I try to take the bus whenever possible. My car is going to sue me for abandoning it!
#397 of 453
Re: [brightness04] by gagrice
Dec 06, 2004 (9:20 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 06, 2004 8:01 am)

So you have the simple math of 200-300% incremental savings in gas to offset 50% or less incremental manufacturing cost. Notice, it's the gallon count that matters not per centage increase in MPG per se.
 
That seems logical. I wonder if Toyota will publish any kind of LCA on the RX400h as they did on some of their other vehicles. Following that train of thought. The person that buys an Accord V6 and drives 50k miles in 5 years would produce less overall pollution than the person that buys an Accord hybrid and drives 100k miles in the same 5 years.
#398 of 453
Re: [gagrice] by backy
Dec 06, 2004 (9:24 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:20 am)

Following that train of thought, the person that buys an Accord V6 and drives 1k miles in five years would produce less overall pollution than the person who buys an Accord V6 and drives 50k miles in the same five years. I fail to see your point, or how it relates to which type of hybrid to buy.
#399 of 453
Re: [gagrice] by brightness04
Dec 06, 2004 (9:29 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:20 am)

Absolutely. Economizing driving habit is every bit as important as economizing vehicle choice when it comes to overall gas consumption. If one can find 50% reduction in miles driven, pursueing that end probably saves more gas than trying any viable vehicle alternative out there; it's highly doubtful vehicles that consume 100% more gas but offer no addtional funcationality whatsoever (to the owner, not to the green-eyed by-stander) can possibly stay on the market in the long run. It would not surprise me if the majority of vehicles on the market become some sort of hybrid in the next decade or two, like the carberretor to EFI change-over two decades ago.
#400 of 453
Re: [backy] by gagrice
Dec 06, 2004 (9:40 am)

Replying to: backy (Dec 06, 2004 9:24 am)

It is a continuation of the debate. I say the HAH is not an environmentally sound choice, where the smaller hybrids such as Insight, Prius and HCH are. If the amount of fuel burnt over the life of the vehicle will determine if it is ecologically beneficial, it was put forth that the bigger the hybrid the quicker it will regain that which was lost in the manufacturing process.
 
That brings me to the last post. If you are a high mileage driver the hybrid is a logical choice over a comparable vehicle. If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle.
 
The way I see this hybrid choice. If you drive a lot our planet is better off if you drive one of the smaller hybrids than the larger ones. If you walk to work and put less than 10k miles per year on your car you are not helping the environment or your pocket book by getting a hybrid.
#401 of 453
Re: [gagrice] by brightness04
Dec 06, 2004 (10:01 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:40 am)

I say the HAH is not an environmentally sound choice, where the smaller hybrids such as Insight, Prius and HCH are.
 
I say Insight, Prius and HCH are not environmentally sound choices, where the bicycle and sneakers are. Not everyone's transportational requirement can be met with Prius, HCH, and certainly not Insight.
 
If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle.
 
The threshold must be extreme because the batteries will in all likelihood be recycled. NiMH is not exactly cheap; even dirt cheap lead acid batteries are recycled.
 
The way I see this hybrid choice. If you drive a lot our planet is better off if you drive one of the smaller hybrids than the larger ones. If you walk to work and put less than 10k miles per year on your car you are not helping the environment or your pocket book by getting a hybrid.
 
What if it is one of the most common type of vehicle ownership in America: the car that has to do everything? Do the distance and carry the load, sometimes at the same time but often at different times? As we know, owning two additional small cars just for commute is incredibly wasteful when manufacturing cost is factored in. People are no dummies; most people would not get large vehicles if a smaller one would suffice in their own estimation, even SUV owners (that's why Suburbans only constitute a small minority even among SUVs). Given a vehicle size, hybrid is a great way of economizing gas consumption without giving up utility or performance (so we are promised Besides, helping the environment is not the only reason for getting hybrid, although it's a nice side effect; just like VTEC and EFI, both help the environment and deliver performance in spades.
#402 of 453
Re: [gagrice] by tempusvn
Dec 06, 2004 (10:23 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 9:40 am)

gagrice: "That brings me to the last post. If you are a high mileage driver the hybrid is a logical choice over a comparable vehicle. If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle."
 
Just because you only drive a hybrid for a fraction of its expected life doesn't mean the clock stops on savings when you sell it.
 
In most cases the life-span of vehicles these days is measured in total miles, not years, and there's no indication that hybrids will have a shorter life-span than their non-hybrid counterparts.
 
Most cars, hybrid or not, will run for their average life-span even if they are driven by multiple people along the way.
 
If a Hybrid has a lower environmental footprint from a Life-Cycle standpoint compared to an alternative vehicle, that benefit will accrue to the world whether you drive it or some future used car buyer drives it.
#403 of 453
by xcel
Dec 06, 2004 (10:29 am)
Hi All:
 
___Escape HEV’s in the real world …
 
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/table.php?cat=escape
 
___Brightness04, telecommuting and those 30 steps to your work station to save the environment is a great idea except for the fact it takes a China or India based citizen the same 30 steps to his workstation to replace your job and for ~ 1/10 of your wage … Just some food for thought.
 
___Good Luck
 
___Wayne R. Gerdes

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