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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions What type of hybrid should I buy? 
453 messages, Last post on Aug 19, 2005 at 6:05 PM
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Remember, the biggest complaint about the Prius is the MPG people are getting in real world driving situation. I believe the EPA rating is 50/60 highway/city or 55 mpg average combined. But most people are getting somewhere in the neighborhood of mid 40s mpg. While that is certainly respectable, it is also 10 mpg less than the EPA figure. One can conclude based on the Prius that the hybrid Lexus SUV might not get the same MPG as Lexus is advertising. If everybody starts to drive powerful hybrid cars thinking that they can have power and efficiency both at the same time then they are being somewhat mislead by auto companies.
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Replying to: motownusa (Dec 05, 2004 7:34 pm) |
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Replying to: backy (Dec 05, 2004 6:44 pm) That is not so. The Escape is not close to the 33 combined mileage it is rated for. I have not seen anyone with as many miles as the Edmund's Escape and they are at 25.5 combined. The 4 cylinder Escape gets 26 combined. Everyone knows the Prius is at least 15% below the EPA estimates. The Insight and HCH are the only ones in the ballpark. The added impact on the environment in the manufacturing of a hybrid is a fact. Without a significant increase in fuel economy and much lower emissions, the benefit to the environment is lost. In my mind cars like the Escape and Accord hybrid will never be as clean as their ICE counterparts. Their slight gain in mileage and emissions will not overcome the much higher amounts of SOx, NOx, CO2 & PM created during their manufacturing process. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Dec 05, 2004 9:25 pm) As for the Prius, even in the mid-40s it gets about 20 mpg more than the average automatic mid-sized sedan (compare for example CR's test of 44 with the Prius vs. mid-20s of other midsized sedans it has tested). What is the closest ICE car to the Insight? Recall that I was comparing hybrid cars to their closest ICE counterpart. The Escape hybrid is a PZEV-emissions vehicle. Do you have some data comparing the lifetime emissions of the Escape hybrid to the V6 Escape, which is the closest ICE counterpart to the hybrid? Anyway, I thought this discussion was all about discussing which hybrid is the best fit for someone's needs--not arguing (again) about the suitability of hybrid technology in general.
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Replying to: backy (Dec 06, 2004 5:45 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (Dec 05, 2004 9:25 pm) The upcoming SUV hybrid applications actually offers a simplified AWD system, obviating the need for mechanical drive shafts and transfer cases to the rear. So the incremental manufacturing cost will be drasticly reduced when a hybrid is compared to an ICE AWD. The logic behind hybrid SUV is quite simple: Replacing a 30mpg tin can with a 40mpg hybrid saves 100 gallons over 12k miles; replacing an 18mpg SUV with a 25mpg hybrid saves 187 gallons over 12k miles, at 30mpg saves 267 gallons, and a 35mpg hybrid would save 324 gallons! As to why SUV owners have to own SUVs to begin with, that's an entirely different topic, and those who are not commuting on two wheels or a pair of sneakers probably should not cast the first stone. For what it's worth, I telecommute, 30 paces from my bedroom to my office, in slipers, so I am holier than thou 
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Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 06, 2004 6:01 am) " That would be the best solution. Can you imagine how much gas can be saved if everybody could work from home ? I am sure we might have to come to that in the not so distant future.
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Replying to: motownusa (Dec 06, 2004 5:57 am) And the main purpose of cars is for rich guys to race horses on weekends Although the first commercial hybrid application was marketted as fuel mizers, hybrid technology was first used in car races until it was banned because it gave the haves "an unfair advantage" over the have-nots. The whole situaiton is a bit like Honda's VTEC a decade ago; first introduced commercially as a fuel saver (VTEC-E Civics) after racing sucess, before high performance VTEC engines tuned for power really catching the imagination of consumers. The later VTEC-E powered Civic HX never sold nearly as well as high performance Integras and RSX's despite being gobs cheaper. |
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Replying to: motownusa (Dec 06, 2004 5:57 am) I agree with your choices and would add the Insight as the best solo or two person commuter available in the USA. I would argue with the assertion that the hybrid will cause less pollution in the manufacture of AWD. It is the electric motors and batteries that increase the manufacturing emissions. So far the only Life Cycle Assessment I have found came from Toyota for the New Prius. It clearly shows that airborne pollutants created during the manufacturing process of the hybrid to be much higher than the equivalent ICE car. That imbalance will not be in favor of the Prius until they both have been driven close to 100k miles. My conclusion is that the imbalance of the LCA for a car like a RX400h or HAH, could be considerably more than 100k miles. I believe that is much of the holdup with Toyota and the other automakers. Diminishing returns both financially and ecologically. All regulators at EPA & CARB are worried about is the emissions on the finished product. Most of the manufacturing pollution is dumped in another country. Try to build that Prius in CA from raw materials. I'll bet it would never happen.
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Replying to: gagrice (Dec 06, 2004 7:38 am) As to LCA (life-time cycle assessment), I think the break-even time/mileage horizon will be much shorter on big heavy hybrids like the RX400H than on light showcase vehicles, due to simple math: The battery and motors in RX400H is only roughly 50% heavier than that of the Prius; to off set that: replacing a Camry/Corolla with a Prius bumps gas mileage from 30mpg to 40 mpg, saving 100 gallons over a 12k mile year. Replacing a RX330 with an RX400H bumps 18mpg to 30-35mpg, that's anywhere between 270-324 gallons over the same 12k mile year; even at 25mpg, there is a saving of close to 200 gallons. So you have the simple math of 200-300% incremental savings in gas to offset 50% or less incremental manufacturing cost. Notice, it's the gallon count that matters not per centage increase in MPG per se.
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