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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions What type of hybrid should I buy? 
453 messages, Last post on Aug 19, 2005 at 6:05 PM
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| ...it's only criminal if they lie about the profits of the corporation in general (or it's individual companies), not about an individual product line. Also, it's pretty easy to play games with numbers in order to make a statement that, while not exactly a lie, isn't in the same ballpark as the truth either. | |
| using accounting as a strategic tool. There are at least two sets of books Toyota has to report on. One is reported profit and the other is actual expenses. If you write off future gains from current expenses and discount government subsidies it can make the profit look much better to the public and the press. Sometimes the government might allow you to claim all the R&D as a tax write off. It is hard to say how a hybrid could be produced with much more expensive parts and still make a profit if on the same line you are making conventional cars, using the same assembly methods and those cars are only making a small profit because of volume. That isn't lying, as pointed out, because you only have to show net profit to the corporations board, not even the stock holders get all the information. | |
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Japanese government helped Toyota out, the same way Clinton administration used our tax dollars for the 70 MPG Super Car project. The result was concept Ford Prodigy, GM Precept, and I forgot the other one. Dennis |
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It is hard to say how a hybrid could be produced with much more expensive parts and still make a profit if on the same line you are making conventional cars, using the same assembly methods and those cars are only making a small profit because of volume. I've never seen numbers on the cost of a conventional ICE drivetrain, like Toyota's VVT-i 4-cylinder from the Camry, with a 4- or 5-speed automatic tranny, compared to the costs of making the HSD powertrain in the Prius--including battery. Anyone know what the difference is? After all, the HSD powertrain are the only significant mechanical difference in the cars. And with the low prices of CRTs and computer chips, it's possible the Prius' controls and "by wire" technology is actually less costly than standard mechanical or electro-mechanical controls. |
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Hi Backy: ___Although the following is loaded with extrapolations and goes beyond any amount of detail I have ever read on the economics of a Hybrid vs. std. ICE anywhere else, you may want to take a look at pages 111 – 117. I think the 04 Prius blew some of their conclusions out of the water (the HSD has to be much less costly then a std. automatic transmission) but if the prices of the Inverter, Power electronics, and the pack itself holds true to form, the Hybrid may never be cost effective. http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/244.pdf ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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I think the 04 Prius blew some of their conclusions out of the water... I think you are correct. According to the estimates in the study (published 10/2001), a '04 Prius should start at over $30,000 in today's dollars. But then, Toyota is a master at wringing costs out of their vehicles. Interesting that their estimate of the first battery cost is "only" $2020, dropping to $1640 in 2010. |
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Hi Backy: ___In regards to the battery costs, I think they might be speaking about costs to the OEM or possibly the cost in 2005 maybe? ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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Replying to: xcel (Apr 22, 2004 6:53 pm) Toyota develops Inverter and APU in one unit in house. They call it Power Control Unit. According to that 2001 study, APU and Inverter should cost $3,980+$1,730=$5,710. Toyota can easily save 2k to 3k there. Toyota Power Control Unit  HSD does not have a transmission so, subtract $1,100. Motor and generators are also manufactured in house. Toyota is saving $3,500 to $4,500 by doing almost everything in house. Dennis |
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Regardless of how Toyota amortizes their R & D it is of no concern to me. All new technology is expensive when it is first developed. When hybrids start to become more prevalent, you will see manufacturing costs decrease as well, which will allow for more profit (NOT lower prices). Once other platforms have the hybrid engine, those R & D costs will be allocated on a greater scale. Perhaps Toyota was saying they DO make money when NOT subtracting allocable R & D. Either way, it is going to be interesting to see what the next few years will bring with respect to this new technology.
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