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Audi S4 vs BMW M3

275 messages,  Last post on Nov 17, 2008 at 12:27 PM

You are in the Audi S4 Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi S4, BMW M3, Sedan

Messages Page 21 of 29

#192 of 275 Consumer Reports Facts by _matty

Dec 01, 2005 (5:15 pm)

After I sat here for a few days and read posts from BMW lovers claiming that Consumer Reports bashed the S4 and praised the M3, I decided to find out the real truth for myself. I forked over $6 for a Consumer Reports New Car Preview 2006 at the grocery store today and I'm going to summarize what the magazine said. Just a note, I didn't include every single comparison, but I didn't leave out anything that would skew the results and mislead anyone. I left out body dimensions and such which I don't think is relevant to the point I'm trying to make anyway. This comparison is based on the newest model of each car that was tested by CR, so I'm assuming the rest of you are using the same data.
 
Price as tested: S4=$50,870. M3=$56,495.
Road test score: Both cars scored the highest rating of 99/100. CR was extremely impressed with the road capabilities of both cars.
Accident avoidance: Both cars tied for the best possible rating.
Side air bags: S4 got a best rating. No data for the M3.
Overall MPG: S4=20. M3=19. Shocking, since the S4 is a V8 an the M3 is an I6. Overall, CR gave the S4 an average rating for fuel economy while the M3 got a below average rating.
Safety Features: Both cars tied for Traction/Stability, ABS, Air Bags and head protection. The M3 offers daytime running lights as an available option, where the S4 does not. Both were pretty much tied on safety belts except that the rear safety belts in the S4 have Pretensioners while those in the M3 do not.
Crash and Rollover Tests: The S4 scored a good or best rating in every category (no surprise). There was no data for the M3 in any of the categories.
Acceleration: 0-30mph: S4=1.7 M3=1.9. 30-60mph: S4=5.3 M3=5.1.
1/4 mile: S4=13.9 101mph. M3=13.8 103mph.
Performance Convenience and Comfort: In the 12 categories, the cars tied in 8 of them. Of the other 4 categories, the S4 edged out the M3 in all of them except one, the M3 got a slightly better rating in emergency handling.
Depreciation: Both cars scored 5/5, so you BMW owners who claim that the M3 runs circles around the S4 when it comes to this category are mistaken according to CR. In fact, this has been one of your main gripes about the S4 and I just found out today that your claim is a little dubious according to CR.
Reliability History: This is the big one which is why I saved it for last. In the 15 categories, the M3 got a below average or worst rating in 5 of them including Transmission (worst); Electrical, Body Integrity, Power Equiptment, Body Hardware (below average). As for the S4, it got a below average rating in only one of the 15 categories, Power Equiptment, and no worst ratings. The overall scores for reliability were 57/75 for the M3 and 63/75 for the S4.
 
The last comparison has to do with predicted new car reliability and this is the category that I question the most, and not because I'm trying to defend the S4. The M3 scored -17% which barely falls into the "average" rating. Average included everything from +20% to -20%. The S4 scored
-46% which barely falls into the "worst" rating. Anything -45% or lower is given a "worst" rating. The problem with this category is the word "Predicted". That means CR is basing their predicting on older models and they use owner surveys as the basis for these predictions. It is a fact that the older S4's from 2000 and 2001 with the V6 engines were problematic. I see no reason why this should be used as a basis to knock the new S4's which have a completely different engine, as well as a more reliable engine according to CR. I don't know what kind of engine BMW was using in it's 2002 and 2003 M3's, but CR gave those engines a "worst" rating as well. The bottom line here is that the BMW lovers in this thread who have been bashing the S4 claiming it's reliability sucks are mistaken acoording to the very source they have been using to defend their claims. In fact, the M3 is the vehicle that gets an overall lower reliability rating and CR's main knock on the S4 is based on nothing but a prediction using data from older and dissimilar model. That is the ONLY reason they do not recommend the S4. Sorry for the long post, but I feel that this info is very important and should be considered by all.
 
Do any of you BMW lovers out there have any issues with these facts?
  
In hindsight, both of these cars appear to be almost a virtual tie according to CR. They recommend the M3, but only barely and they don't recommend the S4 based only on past issues, not present issues. Those who say the S4 is inferior are only stating their opinion which doesn't seem to have any basis in fact at this point. It comes down to nothing more than buyer preference, and from what CR says, buyers of either vehicle will be happy with what they get.

#193 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [m3_r1] by m3_r1

Dec 01, 2005 (5:45 pm)

Replying to: m3_r1 (Dec 01, 2005 4:31 pm)
It's amazing how far some people will go to spin the truth, distort information, and basically attempt to blur the facts about a car with serious reliability issues. I have no idea where you get your information. If you read the REAL CONSUMER REPORTS article on these cars you would have a better understanding what is actually factual. When I give information from consumer reports I simply cut and paste and let the facts speak for themselves. I've done this before and I can do it again:
 
CONSUMER REPORTS:
"The S4 is quick, has a beautifully crafted interior, and delivered the best fuel economy of the group. It has a very tight rear seat, though, and on our track it lacked the at-the-limit handling finesse of the BMW and Cadillac."
  
"See a summary of test findings and Quick Picks--the choices that merit first consideration.
In a sports car we look for quickness, agility, and responsiveness. Comfort, convenience, and fuel
economy are important, but less so than with regular cars. Of the nine cars listed in the chart below, we recommend three. The Audi S4 (1) and Cadillac CTS-V (5) have had below-average reliability in their standard versions, the A4 and CTS, respectively, so we cannot recommend them. We lack reliability data on the Mazda RX-8 (4), Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (6), Pontiac GTO (8), and Chrysler Crossfire (9).
The Ratings rank vehicles based on their overall score in our tests, irrespective of price or reliability. Recommended models ( ) not only tested well but have shown average or better reliability, and performed at least adequately if crash-tested or included in a government rollover test. Quick Picks are recommended models that in our judgment deserve special consideration based on your needs".
 
All four cars have a strong engine and manual transmission, and can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. The Audi and Cadillac are four-door sedans, while the BMW and Pontiac are two-door coupes. The Audi is all-wheel drive, while the others use rear-wheel drive. The M3 is the only one that meets all of our criteria for being recommended. (See CR Quick Recommendations for more details.)
 
If Consumer Reports is not enough, I'll post something from yesterday that I'm still waiting on a response on.
 
SERIOUS ISSUES TO CONSIDER BEFORE BUYING A S4:
 
1. When you visit a dealer and learn just how much less the S4 is really worth on trade in in comparison to the BMW M3. FOR THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THIS GO TO KELLY BLUE BOOK AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES. Just type in both cars with simular equipment and see the results.
 
2. LEARNING THAT THERE ARE TEN TIMES THE AMOUNT OF PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS for the M3 compared to what is available for the S4.
  
3. Comparing the number of independent shops that specialize in repairing BMW's as to those that repair Audi's.
 

#194 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [m3_r1] by _matty

Dec 01, 2005 (5:48 pm)

Replying to: m3_r1 (Dec 01, 2005 5:45 pm)
It's amazing how far some people will go to spin the truth, distort information, and basically attempt to blur the facts about a car with serious reliability issues.
 
I just told you EXACTLY where I got my information. I got all of my information from the
Consumer Reports New Car Preview 2006. I just bought it today. I have no interest in misleading anyone. I just read the #'s and posted them and I didn't change anything. What's your issue?
 
Older Audi S4's (2000 and 2001) had reliability issues. They didn't make them in 2002 and 2003. Older M3's also had reliability issues (2002 and 2003), but you don't hear me griping about any of them. The past does not predict the future.
 

#195 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [_matty] by m3_r1

Dec 01, 2005 (8:01 pm)

Replying to: _matty (Dec 01, 2005 5:48 pm)
The last comparison has to do with predicted new car reliability and this is the category that I question the most, and not because I'm trying to defend the S4. The M3 scored -17% which barely falls into the "average" rating. Average included everything from +20% to -20%. The S4 scored -46% which barely falls into the "worst" rating.
 
I couldn't have said this better myself. -17% for the BMW vs -46% for the S4. These numbers are light years apart. I would be embarrassed to admit my car company had that type of numbers for quality. You are beginning to see the light. Believe it or not past behavior can be a predictor of things to come. In the 1980's and 90's Audi was a joke for reliability in comparison to BMW and Mercedes. Using your own words you admit that the early 2000 models had reliability problems. So now we are to believe that Audi has finally gotten it's act together with the latest addition RS4 after all these years? Perhaps Audi should focus on quality rather than never ending name changes, over rated v8's and all wheel drive.
Audi may be good at throwing various models at BMW but building quality cars is not one of them. The evidence speaks for itself. Let's see is it S4 or RS4? (who knows these days).

#196 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [m3_r1] by _matty

Dec 02, 2005 (1:33 am)

Replying to: m3_r1 (Dec 01, 2005 8:01 pm)
I couldn't have said this better myself. -17% for the BMW vs -46% for the S4. These numbers are light years apart.
Well, yeah. Like I said, I'm not out to mislead anyone and that's what Consumer Reports indicated, so that's what I posted. The #'s are not quite as far apart as you may think though. The way CR's scale is set up, if the S4 was 2 percentage points better and the M3 was 4 percentage points worse the cars would have fallen into the same "below average" category. According to their data, CR absolutely loved the S4 with the exception of past reliability issues. Audi reliability has been improving though and they have made good progress in their 2004+ models. They still have some work to do though, but if the trend continues they should be out of that rut soon.
I would be embarrassed to admit my car company had that type of numbers for quality.
Not really. I'm saying this because I believe that Audi reliability will continue to improve. Besides, they had better continue to improve if they want to stay in business, right? I guess I'm seeing it as a glass half full, where BMW owners who like to bash Audi's see it as a glass half empty. The other reason that I'm not that phased about those #'s is because of what I stated earlier concerning CR basing their reliability #'s on older models.
Using your own words you admit that the early 2000 models had reliability problems.
You bet they did. It was mostly due to engine issues with the V6's that they wisely discontinued. The V8's in the newer S4's are much better and they are continuing to improve. We all know that Audi has had past reliability issues. They were on the verge of bankruptcy back in the early 1980's, but they rebounded and I expect them to continue to improve, at least if they want my business.
So now we are to believe that Audi has finally gotten it's act together with the latest addition RS4 after all these years?
Why not? Let's wait and see before we pass judgement. So far things are looking on the up and up. I have owned my 2005 S4 for 1 year now and I have not had any problems with it. Careful with the RS4 name though. I sense you're being facicious here, but the 2006 S4 and the 2006 RS4 that will be introduced in spring or summer of 2006 are completely different vehicles. The upcoming RS4 is a 414 hp monster with a great looking V8 that redlines at 8250 rpm's. How could any car enthusiast not like that? The rear end is also flared out along with a few other mods that make the RS4 distinguishable from the S4 body. I've been considering getting one, but I don't know if I want to wait until next summer. They say next spring or summer, but as with any new vehicle I'll believe it when I see it.
Believe it or not past behavior can be a predictor of things to come.
That can be the case, but I prefer not to get locked into dogmatic thinking. Again, glass half full.
over rated v8's and all wheel drive.
I don't think either of those are overrated. Why do you think the V8 engine is overrated? Elaborate.
 
Keep in mind, all of the info I just threw out is based on CR information. I'm not just talking out of my you-know-what. Here's some more info the 2006 Buyer's Guide gave with respect to Audi, BMW and Mercedes.
 
Audi: The A4 got CR's highest possible recommendation. It's the only Audi that CR currently recommends.
BMW: The 5-series, X-series, M3, and Z4 are all recommended by CR. None of them got CR's highest recommendation, but they are recommended none the less. Strangely though, the high end BMW's got very bad overall ratings.
Mercedes: Not a single Mercedes model is recommended by CR. In fact, black circles are everywhere in the pages where they rate the numerous Mercedes models. Their models got much worse ratings overall than the Audi's. For those not familiar with how CR rates vehicles- Black circles are not a good thing. I was surprised by this. I kind of thought Mercedes set the standard among the German car makers. They have certainly fallen off their pedestal, according to CR.
 
That said, right now BMW is #1, Audi is #2, and Mercedes is nowhere in sight. If Audi continues to improve their reliability issues though they will give BMW a run for their money. I'm sure Audi is aware of their past reliability problems though and they had better continue to improve if they want to keep selling cars. The A4 is a winner and nobody can deny it, but they don't have enough horsepower for my taste so you won't see me driving one.

#197 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [_matty] by m3_r1

Dec 02, 2005 (2:18 am)

Replying to: _matty (Dec 01, 2005 5:48 pm)
If looking at the dismal past of Audi quality is considered looking at the glass half full then so be it. Only in the mind of some S4 drivers is Audi poor quality not important. Perhaps this is why so few Audi's are seen on the road. THE PUBLIC DOES NOT WANT THEM LIKE THEY WANT OTHER CARS. I think they call it the law of supply and demand. Yet some Audi fans attempt to spin this fact into a plus by claiming that they ejoy being one of the few on the road. This informed consumer happens to know better.
It seems that some of you S4 owners either spin information to your advantage or you flat out ignore the points that expose the S4 for the pretender it is. The S4 or what ever they call it these days is trying so hard to make the public believe it's a true contender with the M3. However those of us who are informed know better. You took time to answer only the points in my last post that were somewhat easy to approach. Now let's try this again. To make it easy for you I posted the final points as to why I could never own that car and why possibly the public does not turn out in droves to purchase them. When the S4 is Consumer Reports Pick over the M3 then at that time I will change my position. But as for now M3 S4
 
SERIOUS ISSUES TO CONSIDER BEFORE BUYING A S4:
  
1. When you visit a dealer and learn just how much less the S4 is really worth on trade in in comparison to the BMW M3. FOR THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THIS GO TO KELLY BLUE BOOK AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES. Just type in both cars with simular equipment and see the results. (Dealers don't care too much about all wheel drive at trade in)
  
2. LEARNING THAT THERE ARE TEN TIMES THE AMOUNT OF PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS for the M3 compared to what is available for the S4. (confusion over what the name will finally be might have something to do with this)
   
3. Comparing the number of independent shops that specialize in repairing BMW's as to those that repair Audi's. (I think there are some independent VW shops that may offer service)

#198 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [m3_r1] by steher

Dec 02, 2005 (9:36 am)

Replying to: m3_r1 (Dec 02, 2005 2:18 am)
Hi,
 
does Audi sell different cars in the U.S. compared to Europe?
Over here in Germany/Europe there is NO difference between Audi and BMW in terms of image/prestige, sales-figures and reliability. Audi is seen to have the best built-qualitiy and has made the biggest steps among the big Three (MB, BMW, Audi) in the last years. 20 years ago, Audi had to fight against it's image of being driven only by old men, but that has changed completely and everybody sees them on the top together with BMW and MB.
And these point of view comes from the country, which is known/called (by many) to build the best cars in the world!
S4 and M3 are definitely in the same league but offer different packets: M3 is the hardliner, which plays out its cards on the racetrack where even a 911 will have problems. The S4 is more like a GT. Offers more space, 4 doors with nearly the same specs and put its focus more on comfort luxury and highspeed-manners.
So everyone here, who says either of them is the better car, will be wrong. M3 AND S4 have its pros and cons and one have to decide which of them fullfill his needs the best.
 
Greetings from Germany

#199 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [m3_r1] by dhamilton

Dec 02, 2005 (10:06 am)

Replying to: m3_r1 (Dec 02, 2005 2:18 am)
M2R1
 I sincerely hope after you finish exposing the all wheel drive conspiracy that Audi has visited on us poor dumb consumers, you can turn your attention to more important matters of national security. Such as investigating the second shooter on the grassy knoll
 At this point I could care less if Pat cancels this post, just so I don't have to read your boring, tired, biased opinions. It's not the opinion's so much as the lack of imagination, and sheer absence of a sense of humor that you exhibit.
 Your tired rambling has succeeded to drive my tired butt back to my mountain bike. {which makes my wife leap for joy at the thought of my ever growing belly diminishing like you your intellect.}
 Finally, I think consumer reports carries more weight in a Japanese car forum. Debating the reliability of German cars is Laughable. If anyone buys an Audi or BMW for reliability then there head ought to be examined. They can join in the line right behind you. And finally for the second time, if RS4, and S4 really confuses you, take your tippy cup, and your blanky and go to there respective reviews on this fine website and I think maybe your confusion will be cleared up.
 Pat please forgive me for this latest trespass against my sworn word to mend my ways, and my mouth, but when genius meets a simpleton, it is my...er his duty to lighten things up and make it interesting. I fall to my knees at your mercy

#200 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [steher] by m3_r1

Dec 02, 2005 (11:13 am)

Replying to: steher (Dec 02, 2005 9:36 am)
You posed a very good question. Personally I'm not sure if Audi sends the same cars here that it builds at home. I do know that German cars do not have to meet the same safety specifications as american cars have to meet if they are not shipped here. For example when a German car is imported to America safety glass must be installed and more restrictive emissions standards where as German cars that stay in country do not have to meet such requirements. Other than what I have shared I not sure if the cars are the same.

#201 of 275 Re: darn confising cars [m3_r1] by rjlaero

Dec 02, 2005 (1:20 pm)

Replying to: m3_r1 (Dec 02, 2005 2:18 am)
If you think I'm going to live my life by Consumer Reports and nothing else, you're crazy. It's only 1 opinion and there's a slew of other reviews by numerous car magazines & publications.
 
We're all spending way too much time defending the S4 against (1) BMW loon, so it's time to move on to sensible people.

Messages Page 21 of 29

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