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Hybrid Honda Accord

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#61 of 3591 Toyota Versus Honda Hybrid Technology by leearthurs Mar 11, 2004 (6:54 am)
While I am pretty familiar with the current Honda and Toyota hybrid technologies (the approaches are very different from each other), I would like to understand better the pros and cons of each as compared with the other.   My current impression is that Toyota's approach is the better one for improved gas mileage whereas Honda's approach is better for improved mileage within the higher acceleration performance market. Is this impression correct? Are there other trade offs, pros, cons?
#62 of 3591 by kirstie_h HOST Mar 11, 2004 (7:25 am)
Welcome to Town Hall, leearthurs. You'll likely get some feedback on your toyota v honda comparison question here, but you might also want to visit the fairly new discussion about the technology licensing on our News & Views board: Both Ford, Nissan buy Toyota's Hybrid System!
#63 of 3591 a common misconception by john1701a Mar 11, 2004 (8:07 am)
> I drove it and it feels adequate, actually, just not quick.   The 50kW motor in Prius is so smooooooooooth that you won't feel anything. There is no vibration from it like you'd get from an engine. So perception is skewed.   So to judge adequacy, you really need to focus on what the speedometer tells you and not what you feel.   JOHN
#64 of 3591 Re: Toyota Versus Honda Hybrid Technology by john1701a Mar 11, 2004 (8:44 am)
The most important fact to keep in mind is that:   - Toyota's primary goal is to REDUCE EMISSIONS   - Honda's primary goal is to INCREASE EFFIECIENCY   That difference is significant. And it is by no means obvious. In fact, it is quite commonly not even realized. Studying the design though, it does become apparent.   Toyota has an electric motor 5 times larger than Honda and offers the ability to drive using just electricity. Slow moving heavy commute traffic is where pollution is worse. Emissions are drastically reduced in these conditions, by having that ability to crawl along without the engine needing to run. The steering & A/C are electric too. So that also reduces having to run the engine as often.   Honda requires the engine to run for almost all functions; however, that engine is well tuned for that. So if you do nothing but high-speed cruising on highways and don't ever have to deal with heavy commute conditions, the resulting efficiency will be rather impressive.   JOHN
#65 of 3591 Another wrong foot. by yerth10 Mar 11, 2004 (9:10 am)
Honda decided to put hybrid in a 2-seater vehicle (Insight) and the share of this segment is hardly 2 % of the Worldwide sales.   Sales volume was so low.   Again they are planning to sell a hybrid version of V6 Accord whose sales   is hardly 10 % of Accord's 400,000 sales in US.   No idea why Honda is going after such low volume segments. On top of this, they are selling a manual version whose share is hardly 20 - 30 % in US & Japan which is going to increase their R&D costs.   Toyota is smart in the sense that they are just concentrating on 1 transmission system and saving the costs.   Also they are going for the 5-door vehicles whose demand is surging every year.
#66 of 3591 by ateixeira Mar 11, 2004 (9:20 am)
Honda may have intentionally limited volume, since it's an untested technology.   I bet the Accord hybrid will be higher volume.   -juice
#67 of 3591 Sales by yerth10 Mar 11, 2004 (10:29 am)
Any idea on how many H-Civics and Insights were sold worldwide so far.
#68 of 3591 by usbseawolf2000 Mar 13, 2004 (12:52 am)
"Toyota is smart in the sense that they are just concentrating on 1 transmission system and saving the costs."   That's because HSD ECVT is more efficient than a manual transmission and smoother than even 6-speed automatic transmission.   Dennis
#69 of 3591 by usbseawolf2000 Mar 13, 2004 (12:56 am)
"Again they are planning to sell a hybrid version of V6 Accord whose sales is hardly 10 % of Accord's 400,000 sales in US."   Accord hybrid will have very little performance improvement and fuel economy. I do not think the premium you pay extra might be appeal to a lot of people. 2006 Camry hybrid might give you more bang for you buck. Let's wait and see until more information come out.   Dennis
#70 of 3591 by usbseawolf2000 Mar 13, 2004 (1:17 am)
"I would like to understand better the pros and cons of each as compared with the other."   Current Honda offering Pro: - Save cost from one small electric motor - Cost less to make smaller battery   Current Honda offering Con: - Very little electric assist (36lbs-ft torque at 1,000RPM) - Can not regenerate and drive with electric at the same time - Ability to capture little from regenerative braking - Wear out the battery more due to frequent deeper discharges thus, shorter warranty - Costs more to manufacture manual/CVT transmission, alternator, starter, clutch/torque converter, etc.. - More complicate than a traditional car - Variable Cylinder Management(will be in Accord Hybrid) reduces engine drag on highway only   Current HSD Con: - Costs more to make two electric motors/generators(~20KW and 50KW) - Costs more to make larger battery   Current HSD Pro: - Can drive on electric only mode(Stealth) - ECVT Transmission superior than manual or mechanical CVT transmission - Huge electric assist (295 lbs-ft torque from 0-20MPH at 1,200RPM) - Can regenerate and drive on electric at the same time thus, able to drive up hills and recharge battery at the same time - Ability to capture much more from regenerative braking - Battery usage is minor due to frequent recharge thus, longer warranty - Elimination to manufacture manual/CVT transmission, alternator, starter, clutch/torque converter, etc.. - Simpler than a traditional car - Atkinson cycle engine reduces engine drag(more efficient) in the city and highway with easy, minor modification and costs very little - More efficient. (Compare lighter/smaller Civic even manual transmission highway 51mpg with faster Prius ECVT in 0-60 or 30-60 and highway 51mpg)   Dennis

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