Last post on Oct 27, 2013 at 10:25 PM
You are in the Lincoln Navigator
What is this discussion about?
Lincoln Navigator, SUV
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#630 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [cacman]
Jul 15, 2008 (10:02 am)
I would say :::: Caution :::::: when considering this purchase. I just sold my 2003 Lincoln Navigator. I absolutely LOVED the vehicle but I spent a fortune on repairs. Especially the 2003 year is particularly bad (see consumer reports).
There is a major know flaw (TSB 06-05-13) that affects the left side cylinder head. My vehicle got to about 78,000 miles before that failed. The repair was huge $5,200 and I had to write letters to the dealership for them (and the Ford company) to help me with the costs. We wound up splitting it 3 ways. Then, a couple of months later I had the oil adapter fail and that caused the oil to leak into my coolant system. Another huge fix to repair and replace the entire coolant system (Radiator, coolant reservior, hoses, etc...). I had lots of electrical issue pop up over the years (because I had a loaded Navigator - the ultimate) but those were handled under my warranty plan which took me until 75,000 miles.
But, after dumping so much additional money into the SUV and being stranded on the road with the car overheating from the coolant problem, I just couldn't handle the un reliablity of the vehicle.
So, I would have to give this car a thumbs down on mechanical soundness. But, it is by far the nicest, cushiest car I have ever owned. I also own an Infiniti and an Acura. Navigator was the most luxurious but even more expensive to repair than my other two foreign cars.
I just traded in my Navigator and yes the trade in value was very low. But, honestly ..... I felt that "while it was running" I should hurry up and dump it.
I think you should opt for a newer year than the 2003. If you look at consumer reports you can maybe see which years have which problems.
OBTW, when I sold my Navigator ..... I decided to go back to my foreign car again because I needed reliability. I know that nothing is perfect ...... but we just bought our second Acura and I am satisfied with my purchase.
Good luck on your shopping ......
#631 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [wyngator]
Jul 15, 2008 (10:29 am)
I'd have to agree that a Navigator and Aviator would not be recommended. However, don't believe that it's a Ford thing necessarily. These vehicles were designed prior to Ford's current quality program plus they are body on frame SUVs which are naturally prone to more failures - even with imports.
Ford's newer vehicles (Edge e.g.) are proving to have better than average quality. You might consider a new Edge or Flex if you don't need the towing capacity.
#632 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [akirby]
Jul 15, 2008 (12:13 pm)
Maybe you are right akirby.
Unfortunately for Ford, I have been a loyal import purchaser of automobiles. I have owned a Datsun, Honda, Mazda, VW, along with the Acuras and Infiniti's that I already mentioned. My husband's ONLY stipulation when I was out shopping for my new vehicle last month was that it was NOT an American based company. His concern (and mine) is a simple case of what we have experienced. Our only BAD auto purchase was the Lincoln Navigator.
Oh yes, we did own a Mercury Villiager Van (but that was a Nissan engine because it was basically the NIssan Quest and that was a reliable van). Nope ..... we cannot afford to "try" another Ford.
#633 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [wyngator]
Jul 15, 2008 (12:37 pm)
It's understandable that past experiences have jaded you. But Ford's quality gains are real and obvious. Who could have predicted that the Fusion would be virtually bulletproof while Camry and Accord have had major problems (engine sludge and transmission problems)?
Anything built after 2005 has seen better than average reliability. If you simply don't want to buy a Ford - that's fine. But don't buy an import strictly on the basis that it will be more reliable because based on current data the chances are good that it won't be.
#634 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [akirby]
Jul 15, 2008 (12:59 pm)
Well, you certainly *peaked* my interest. So, I pulled out my trusted Consumer Reports CARS '08 that I purchased recently for my own car purchase.
You are correct about the Ford Fusion. CR loves that car and their published data supports what you say. I see that they have data for 2006 and 2007 and so far it is all red circles and half red circles. A good report from CR.
I would consider that vehicle as the years roll on and I see what many miles do on that car. I'd like to see it's performance at over 100,000 miles and also over 200,000 miles. I am the kind who likes to hang onto my cars and my infiniti is holding strong at 185,000 miles.
As for the CR of the Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry. They give them great reviews (all full red circles and half red circles) since 2004 each year. It looks like they took a dip in 2003 for the Accord. Toyota Camry is actually all great reviews from 1998 all the way through 2007. So, it looks like Camry is the winner overall.
Note: This is not true for the hybrid model. That seems to have an issue in one area. OBTW, Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic have outstanding reviews also. So there is no reported reliability issues there.
Also, it amazed me but the Honda Accord has no scheduled maintenance until the first 100,000 miles. I mean obviously tires and oil are happening .... but nothing else. Pretty amazing. I test drove but wound up not buying the Accord. One of the reasons was due to a disappointing crash rating on the 2008 for side impacts.
#635 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [wyngator]
Jul 15, 2008 (5:42 pm)
Actually the Camry V6 performance caused CR to put it on the Not Recommended list and that along with the problem plagued Toyota Tundra caused CR to no longer automatically recommend a new Toyota vehicle based on Toyota's past reputation. It will have to earn the recommendation from now on. Also - Toyota led the nation in recalls a couple of years ago. Honda, meanwhile, has remained high but still with a few problems on the Accord, Civic and Odyssey. The difference is Honda isn't chasing market share like Toyota and they're able to better control their product.
#636 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [akirby]
Jul 15, 2008 (7:11 pm)
Yes, the Toyota Tundra has bad reviews compared to other Toyotas. But, the issue of CR I have in my hands shows Camry, as a "recommended" vehicle. Also, Accord , Civic and Odyssey are all CR recommended.
I guess for those reading along on this thread, I would have to say go purchase your own copy of Consumer Reports. Because, my copy shows all the models I mentioned as great quality vehicles and apparently akirby has a copy that states otherwise. I can see it would be difficult to determine which one of us is reading from the "correct" version.
#638 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [wyngator]
Jul 16, 2008 (5:03 am)
Regarding the Hondas, I never said they weren't recommended or they were bad vehicles, just that they've had their share of problems and are no longer bulletproof like they used to be. But they're doing a lot better than Toyota.
#639 of 829 Re: Used Navigator [akirby]
Jul 16, 2008 (6:04 am)
Yes, I did in fact GOOGLE it and the article is below. Yes, Toyota slipped from 1st place to 5th place for reliability. It claims due to V6 Camry, Tundra, and Lexus GS.
But after reading the article that you referenced, the ONLY domestic manufacturer to make it into the TOP TEN was Buick and it came in 10th place. So, I guess it still points back to the fact that you are at more financial risk when you sink money into a domestic auto as opposed to a foreign one.
Toyota skids in reliability rankings
Automaker slips to fifth from first place, and some versions of Camry, Tundra and Lexus GS no longer recommended.
By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
October 17 2007: 4:42 PM EDT
NEW YORK, CNNMoney.com -- The Toyota brand has lost its top position for iron-clad reliability, according to an influential Consumer Reports survey released Tuesday.
The survey dropped Toyota from first to fifth place - behind Honda, Acura, Scion and Subaru - in average vehicle reliability. The rankings are based on average predicted reliability for all models sold under a given brand.
2007 Toyota Camry: Because of poor predicted reliability, V6-powered versions of the Toyota Camry are no longer recommended by Consumer Reports.
Brands made by Toyota Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. still dominate the rankings: Scion is Toyota's low-priced car brand and Acura is Honda's luxury car brand.
Consumer Reports said it no longer recommends V6 versions of Toyota's Camry or four-wheel-drive V8 versions of its Tundra pick-up because of poor reliability.
In the past, because Toyota (Charts) products have so consistently proved reliable, the magazine would assume at least average reliability for Toyota's brand new cars, without waiting for survey data from owners.
But from now on, the magazine will wait for a full year of reliability survey data to come in before it recommends a Toyota product - as it does with most other manufacturers.
"We are still, by any measure, a very reliable make," said Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis.
Toyota Motor Co., which makes Toyota, Lexus and Scion cars, makes 44 percent of the cars rated as "Most Reliable" by Consumer Reports, Dominicis pointed out.
Toyota recently passed Ford in sales and is now the second best-selling car company in the United States behind General Motors.
Domestic manufacturers General Motors (Charts, Fortune 500), Ford (Charts, Fortune 500) and Chrysler continued to improve in the Consumer Reports reliability rankings. But only Buick, GM's near-luxury brand ranked number 10, made into the top ten.
Among individual models, GM's closely related GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook SUVs earned a Consumer Reports recommendation based on their first full year of data. The Dodge Charger also earned a recommendation after its reliability showed substantial improvement from previous years.
Ford, in particular, is improving in quality, according to Consumer Reports. In all, 93 percent of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles showed average or better reliability in the most recent reliability survey.
Among overall brands, Ford's Mercury brand ranked 11th, the Ford brand ranked 13th and the Lincoln luxury brand ranked 14th. Other than Buick, they were the highest-ranking domestic brands.
Mike Hardie, Ford's director of quality, predicted that Ford would take the top position in Consumer Reports reliability rankings in the near future.
Ford's quality has tended to be more consistent, with steady improvement year over year, than that of other domestic manufacturers, said David Champion, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports.
"GM and Chrysler have been more hit-and-miss," said Champion.
Of the 39 cars rated "Most Reliable" in Consumer Reports new list, four are by domestic manufacturers. They are the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, two-wheel-drives Ford F-150 V6 and GM's Pontiac Vibe. The Vibe is built in cooperation with Toyota and shares its engineering with the Toyota Matrix.
But 20 of the 44 "least reliable" models named by Consumer Reports were also from domestic manufacturers.
The least reliable car of all, according to Consumer Reports survey, is General Motors' Pontiac Solstice sports car. Its reliability was calculated to be 234 percent worse than average. It was followed closely by GM's Cadillac Escalade EXT, which is calculated to be 220 percent less reliable than the average vehicle.
General Motors cited progress, as well, in its drive to improve quality.
"Our most recent launches are all recommended,' pointed out Bob Ottolini, GM's executive director for product quality, referrring to the Saturn Outlook and Aura and the GMC Acadia.
Ottoline agreed that GM needs to work on maintaing strong quality once it achieves it in a product so that cars don't end up slipping in the ratings as glitches start to appear.
European manufacturers showed some of the biggest improvements in overall brand rankings. Porsche rose 20 places since last year's survey to finish ninth, for example. Meanwhile, Mini rose 16 places and Jaguar rose 17.
Consumer Reports' reliability rankings differ significantly from those released recently by J.D. Power and Associates. In the J.D. Power most recent "Vehicle Dependability Survey," five of the top ten brands were domestic and Buick tied Lexus for first place.
One major reason for that difference: J.D. Power only surveys owners of three-year-old vehicles. But Consumer Reports surveys its subscribers about vehicles from all three of the most recent model years, unless the vehicle has changed significantly. If the vehicle has changed in that time, only vehicles built since the change are included.
Consumer Reports' rankings are based on survey responses from subscribers to the magazine and its Website. Responses included information on almost 1.3 million vehicles.
Over the past few years, both Consumer Reports and J.D. Power surveys have showed similar trends, however, with domestic car brands improving in quality with European brands generally lagging behind.