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Honda S2000, Convertible
#86 of 420 Re: 2005 S2000 Price in Dallas [cmonlow]
May 16, 2005 (4:06 am)
I bought a 2002 S2000 for $32,000 in late 2001 when the Edmunds "TMV" was $36,000 ($3,200 over MSRP). Today, the Edmunds TMV in my area is $30,982, approximately $650 over invoice and $300 less than the price you were quoted. Personally, in my last three purchases (all Honda/Acuras) I have substantially beat Edmunds TMV price, so I would expect to be able to buy an S2000 toaday for invoice - $30,335.
Far more offensive than your slightly high price quote, is the dealer's claim that they need to spray an "environmental protection layer" over the cars paint. That's pure B.S. and a reason I would immediately tell this dealership to pound salt. I'd take that complaint right to the GM, forget the sales manager or sales person.
The S2000 is the best built car I have ever owned, bar none. Mine was "Spa Yellow" and the factory paint was perfect, and remained so after 2 1/2 years of parking on the street outside my house in DC. I waxed the car with Maguire's Professional #26 about once every 4 months and could never find the slightest imperfection. The idea that some yahoo Texas dealership goofballs would be spraying something on this car should be punishable as a capital offense. And eligible for the death penalty. This car is partly hand built in Japan next to the NSX at one of the highest quality automotive plants in the world. It needs NOTHING sprayed on it. And if anything was, I would absolutely NOT buy that car.
On your final question, Honda has a 3% holdback, so even at invoice, they are making $1,000 profit. Dealership economics may appear baffling, but be assured that they make a bundle in a lot of ways - service, volume kickbacks in addition to the holdback, etc. In a recent Washington Post Article, the Ourisman family was estimated to have a net worth of several hundred million. And their main dealership sells Chevy's. They could probably partner up with a few other Washington automotive families and buy GM. Not that they would ever want to, since they are making far too much selling and servicing them.
#87 of 420 Re: 2005 S2000 Price in Dallas [cmonlow]
May 16, 2005 (6:34 am)
That is about $5 worth of chemicals and $590 worth of dealer markup. Of course, that crap-o-la on your car can make it hard to wax your car so I would avoid a car with that on it if you can. To me it is a minus rather than the plus the dealer claims it to be.
The invoice on the S is about $30,300 and as was mentioned hold back on Hondas is 3% of MSRP or a little over $1,000. So if you got the car for $29,300 then the dealer would make no money, for $31,260 the dealer is making close to $2,000 profit. Depending on the area, you can do better.
#88 of 420 You guys are forgetting...
May 17, 2005 (6:01 am)
A little item called **overhead**.
If you think holdback is pure bottom line profit, you are dead wrong.
#89 of 420 Re: You guys are forgetting... [isellhondas]
by kyfdx@Edmunds HOST
May 17, 2005 (6:30 am)
I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is bottom line profit..
I believe the term is gross profit.. There is no way for a buyer (or most salespeople) to know what the net profit will be..
But, if we know about holdback, stair-step incentives, etc... , we can get an understanding of what the gross profit is... and how they can sell a car under invoice.. Any extra information can only help the buyer..
Besides... if they can't make money on the deal, they won't accept it.. I have faith in the dealer to know how low he can go...
#90 of 420 Re: You guys are forgetting... [kyfdx]
May 17, 2005 (6:38 am)
Exactly. I never meant to suggest someone COULD buy for invoice - hold back - incentives with nothing added on. You might, but the dealer would be nuts.
You have to know the numbers in order to make a reasonable offer, then it is up to the dealer to see if they can live with it or not.
#91 of 420 All of that is correct...
May 17, 2005 (1:14 pm)
I guess I just will never understand why people can't just make an offer based on what they feel is a good value to them rather than basing their offer on how much money the dealer may or may not be making.
Good thing houses aren't bought and sold that way!
#92 of 420 Re: All of that is correct... [isellhondas]
May 17, 2005 (1:52 pm)
Good thing houses aren't bought and sold that way!
You need to re-check your logic. There is absolutely no difference in the fundamental way houses and cars are sold. Seller puts up a price, buyers and sellers negotiate up or down from there. It's a matter of supply and demand. If a buyer gets too piggish, he doesn't get the goods. If a seller gets too piggish, he doesn't get the sale.
You also need to recognize that most people feel a "good value" is a price equal to or less than what most others are paying. Compared to a $62k Boxster S, a $40k Honda S2000 would still be a good value. Until one found out that the going price others are paying is $31k, and then their good feelings would turn into feeling like a complete boob.
#93 of 420 Model changes?
May 17, 2005 (2:11 pm)
I have just recently become interested in an S2000 in the used car market.
Can someone enlighten me on what significant changes have been made since the S2000 introduction that you would consider in selecting the model year? It was 2003 that they increased the displacement and gave it a facelift, right? Glass rear window was also that year?
Were there any years in particular to avoid with regard to reliability?
Any other factors you would consider when purchasing a used S2000 would be appreciated.
By the way, anyone taller than 6' driving one of these? (Tells you how far I'm into this process - haven't even tried one on yet)
#94 of 420 Re: All of that is correct... [habitat1]
May 17, 2005 (2:26 pm)
Nothing wrong with my logic.
The laws of supply and demand apply to cars as well. If it's January and we are sitting on ten S-2000's and someone wants to make a very low offer, they will probably own a new car! If it's June and we have one in stock, it's a different story.
And you hit it on the head. A lot of people are just scared to death that just maybe, someone else, somewhere may have paid less than they did for the same car. In my opinion, that's not a fun way to go through life.
#95 of 420 Re: Model changes? [breld]
May 17, 2005 (2:46 pm)
2000 and 2001 have the plastic window. For 2002 they replaced it with a smaller glass window. They also boosted power on the OEM stereo and were supposed to upgraded the transmission - some other minor trim type stuff. The 2002 cars have separate tweeters in the door, 2000 and 2001 cars have a single (coaxial) speaker.
For 2004 they changed to a 2.2l I4, but it no longer revs to 9k like the older cars. Larger brakes and suspension changes. Larger 17" wheels where added with a different design. Transmission ratios re-worked and synchros improved. Some minor exterior changes and the console and radio door were re-worked. Supposed to have more room, but you would be hard pressed to find it (or be really short to use it).
Mine is a 2001, and I updated to the 2002 stereo (really cheap used) and but Polk speakers in the doors and behind the seats - sounds much better. Personally, I would not care much which year, they are all a hoot to drive. The plastic window is a little more work to keep up, but it is larger than the glass window - but I hardly ever drive the car with the top UP so it does not matter much.
Other than no more 9k redline, the 2004 and up cars would be nicer - just more torque and the suspension and interior upgrades are nice. The tweaks make the car a little less prone to coming around with trailing throttle oversteer - which is a problem if the driver is not used to a RWD car. No stability control on any year, so it is up to the driver to keep it in line.
I would want a car that either has or could get a HondaCare warranty. If it does not have it, then it has to be under 42 month/42k miles.
With 6 years of production, it should be pretty easy to find a nice low mile example used for a nice price. You can also buy new for under invoice from several Honda dealers (under $30k in some cases). Some folks have abused their S2000s, so getting one used from a dealer or auction would be iffy to me. Being able to look at the original owner and talk to them would be the way to go if used. For example, I run the car as intended - but I don't abuse it and I do maintain it. You would not want one someone had putted around in, but you don't want a speed-shifted, bent shift fork car either.
Plan on replacing the super-sticky rear tires at 10-12k miles (depending on how you drive) and the fronts at about twice that. For the pre-2004 cars these are $177 + shipping each for rears from the TireRack. I don't think the 2004 and up tires will last any longer and may cost a bit more.
I am toying with the idea of selling mine and getting a new one. I only have 16k or so on mine, but I would like to get the full warranty, a new car, and the upgrades. Not a big deal if I "have" to keep mine - loads of fun. I can get 22-23mpg commuting to work, 26 mph out blasting around the back roads, and a little better than that with the cruise locked on during an Interstate trip. All top down, of course.
If you fit the car, then test drive a USED one - that is broken in so you can VTEC it to 8-9k. Then you will really see what it is about. A lot of folks don't "get" the car - light, tossible, fun - but not a lot of torque. That mean you have to pay attention and DRIVE the car. A lot folks will test drive and just not get it and end up in a Mustang V-8 or Z or something. The rest of us, get it and get it