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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ? 
336 messages, Last post on Oct 26, 2007 at 11:07 AM
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> Corolla or Civic is much safer bet It's nothing but a bet though... since no data is available about the 2004 Prius yet, which is a completely new frame & body design. JOHN |
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Hi All: ___An 04 Corolla LE w/ the following can be purchased for $14,900. * 4 Speed Automatic (ECT) Electronically Controlled Transmission * A/C - mechanical * Anti-Lock brakes * (DRL’s) Day Time Running Lights * Cruise Control * Power Mirrors * Driver’s Side Seat Height Adjuster * Power Windows * Power Door Locks * AM/FM CD w/ 6 speakers * Keyless Entry Remotes * Cast Aluminum Alloy rims * Tilt Steering * 60/40 Split-Fold down Rear Seat * Integrated display including speedometer, tachometer, outside temperature … * Rear Defrost Safety NHTSA: Front Driver and Passenger – Frontal Impact: 5 stars Front Seat/Rear Seat – Side Impact: 4 stars Rollover Resistance: 4 Stars IIHS: The highest rating of (G) - Good all the way across. ___Who knows what the 04 Prius will rate but hopefully it will be better then the NHTSA’s 02-03 Prius tests with 3, 4, 3, 3, 4 ratings … Although there is a bet that it has improved, the 04’s crash worthiness was considered in its design and should rate at least 4 and possibly 5 stars across the board. ___As for the Honda Civic Hybrid, it is truly outclassed in this game. It had the edge against the 01-03 Prius but not the 04 given it still costs more in a comparable trim. The 01 – 03 Prius wasn’t close against the 03/04 Corolla either but the 04 is a comparable vehicle with its greater size and closer to std. economy class power IMHO. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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Hi All: ___An 04 Toyota Camry LE w/ the following can be purchased for $17,900. * 4 Speed Automatic (ECT) Electronically Controlled Transmission * A/C - mechanical * Anti-Lock brakes * (DRL’s) Day Time Running Lights * Cruise Control * Power Mirrors * Driver’s Side Seat Height Adjuster and Lumbar support * Power Windows * Power Door Locks * AM/FM CD w/ 6 speakers * Keyless Entry Remotes * Tilt Steering * 60/40 Split-Fold down Rear Seat * Integrated display including speedometer, tachometer, outside temperature … * Rear Defrost Safety NHTSA (2003 Camry): Front Driver and Passenger – Frontal Impact: 5/4 stars Front Seat/Rear Seat – Side Impact: 3/5 stars Rollover Resistance: 4 Stars IIHS: The highest rating of (G) - Good all the way across except for an (A) – Average for Leg/Foot – Right side. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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Hi All: ___An 04 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ the following can be purchased for ~ $19,700. * CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) * Automatic Climate-Control with Electric A/C * Anti-Lock brakes * Cruise Control * Power Mirrors * Driver’s Side Seat Height Adjuster * Power Windows * Power Door Locks * AM/FM CD w/ 4 speakers - 120 W * Tilt Steering * 60/40 Split-Fold down Rear Seat * Integrated multi-display including speedometer, tachometer, outside temperature, charge/assist, instantaneous FCD … * Rear Defrost Safety NHTSA: Front Driver and Passenger – Frontal Impact: 5/5 stars Front Seat/Rear Seat – Side Impact: 5/4 stars Rollover Resistance: 4 Stars IIHS (2001 – 2004 Civic’s): The highest rating of (G) - Good all the way across. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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Since the Corolla is 3/4 the price of a base Prius it's safe to say that if you want fuel economy and a "decently equiped" car but don't care so much about the techno features then it's hard-pressed to say the Prius is a better car because (best guess for now) at worst it gives 10% better and best it gives 40%(!) better than the corolla w/auto. 40% better is pretty good, I have to admit. |
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Hi All: ___Here are the 0 to 60 mph times … 03 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT:_______13.5 seconds - Consumer Reports/Motor Trend 04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________10.2 seconds - Auto Week 03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________9.8 seconds - Consumer Reports 03 Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto:________9.5 seconds - Motor Trend ___Here are some 60 to 0 mph baking distances: 04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________142 Feet - Motor Week 03 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT:_______133 feet - Consumer Reports/Motor Trend 03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________128 Feet - Motor Trend 03 Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto:________128 feet - Motor Week ___Interior noise levels at 70 mph: 04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________??? 03 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT:_______73 dB(A) - Car and Driver 03 Toyota Camry LE w/ MANUAL?:___73 dB(A) - Car and Driver 03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________70 dB(A) - Car and Driver ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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If the primary goal of a prius/hybrid buyer is to reduce fuel consumption, reduce emissions etc then the best advice for a non-rich person would be to buy a Toyota Echo (or similar car). The Echo has even better MPG than the corolla and as exel mentioned previously, with good driving habits, tire pressure etc you can do better than the EPA ratings for MPG. It seems obvious to me that hybrids are not a giant leap in solving our fuel burning problems. We need folks to drive more fuel efficient cars, even if that means buying a medium size SUV instead of a huge SUV. Recently one (or 2) of the American car companies said they'd be coming out engines that shut off half the engine when the power is not needed. Since many of the cars on the road consume so much gas (compared to the prius/civic) the fuel saved from these types of engines would far out-save the current hybrid offerings. Fortunately, they can possibly combine both types of engines. |
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xcel, I'd have to agree with you that the civic hybrid is truly outclassed by the 2004 prius. I suspect honda may have to make some changes or reduce the price in about a year or so in order to compete. Until then the under-supply of 2004 prius will probably keep the civic hybrid selling to those who really want a hybrid immediately. I'm sure it's too early now to see the effect of 2004 prius on civc hybrid sales but have you heard anything about whether the civic hybrid is making the EPA ratings of 47-48 MPG? |
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Hi All: ___Pounds of Smog-Forming pollution per 15,000 miles driven: 03 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT:_______12.3 – 12.9 04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________02.8 – 04.1 03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________12.3 – 12.9 03 Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto:________05.3 – 06.3 ___Greenhouse gas or CO2 release is directly related to the gallons of fuel burned per miles driven. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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If I worked in Honda marketing department, I would not advertize Civic Hybrid a as hybrid car. I would say something like "conventional car improved according to 21-rd century demands"  Because IMA is just an assist system. It does not fundamentally change the way the engine or transmission works. Yes, it has batteries and motor-generator, but these things works totally transparent for the gas engine, transmission or a driver. If battery or electric motor failed in IMA, Honda would drive like a normal car, but without additional 13-hp assist from electric motor. It still would be able to start, because as far as I know it has a conventional starter. And it would drive normally, because it has totally conventional 5-speed manual transmission or CVT. The main idea in Honda's approach is (1) to lower fuel consumtion in all driving modes by using smaller lean-burn engine. And to compensate for the lack of torque and power it uses (2) electric motor during hard acceleration (ergo Integrated Motor ASSIST). Prius is totally new look on how a car should be built. Its smart transmission works only because of the way gas engine and two electric motor-generators interact with each other, you cannot just pull one or other part from Prius -- it just would fall apart. And looking at the torque flow and energy flow schemes I tend to think, that Prius would not be driveable if even one of these motor-generator failed. But this innovative approach gives Prius better mileage and better (almost zero) emissions in city driving. I would compare Prius with space Shuttle, which should be totally bullet-proof to be used as it supposed to. But we can see what might happen, if only one small piece of Shuttle fails. On the other hand, Honda's hybrid is like the Mir station: nothing fancy, but it works and will work even in case of minor fails in the electric part of the hybrid system. Anyway, Civic hybrid does not deliver as much as Prius: its economy is worse and its emissions worse either, especially in the city driving, because Civic hybrid cannot drive with its gasoline engine shut off. Again, read the name: ASSIST. Also, Honda makes other cars, like Civic HX, which have fuel economy almost as good as its Civic hybrid. So, what's the point? Honda was able to pull 60-something mpg on Insight, but it was because of ultralight aluminum body, 0.25 drag coefficient, and only two seats. One can see, that Honda technology does not scale up well. Toyota managed to get close to Insight with the car almost twice larger and with conventional steel body. So, my verdict is that Prius is more of "21-century space technology", and Civic hybrid is "steam engine with computer". If you believe in technology, choose Prius. If you want 100%-bulletproof solution, choose Civic Hybrid (better choose Insight then). |
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