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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ? 
336 messages, Last post on Oct 26, 2007 at 11:07 AM
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| did anyone read post #57? we need to try to stay on topic of comparing the Prius with competitors and not give a lecture about the CVT transmission inside! | |
| belong in the general Prius discussion. This is the hotly contested comparison discussion, so please, compare. | |
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Hi John1701a: > Yes, hybrids only sip gas. ___No, the Honda Insight 5 speed sips gas without assist from the IMA. You know, upwards of 90 + mpg and 0 to 60 in less then 13 seconds with 0% charge in the batteries. It should not have been a Hybrid in the first place … ___For other extreme high mileage non-Hybrid automobiles, do a google search on Shell Eco-Marathon. We are speaking in excess of 10,000 miles per gallon from ICE Gas/Diesel’s, not Hybrid’s. > I mentioned the increase in RPM from 6,000 to 10,000. Toyota did in fact implement the very thing you claim they couldn't. (Ha! Got ya!) ___You got what? First, I was not speaking of the Prius or any of the other 3 vehicles as stated but a Hybrid (could be an Insight, HCH, or Prius shell) engine/transmission with an imaginary motor supplying the total motive force to move the automobile. Two. I know the Prius’ engine varies in RPM. Any number of reviews have mentioned the 04 Prius’ engine to be quite raucous when accelerating hard. Since most electric motors produce a low hum, I would say the professional reviewers are speaking about the Prius’ ICE and if it were at a constant RPM, why is it not raucous in a steady cruise vs. accelerating? ___Now if the ICE or Diesel were only used to run the generator which in turn charged the batteries only, its RPM range could be constricted to within 500 RPM of maximum efficiency quite easily. From the CVT articles linked here the other day, it took ~ 15 HP to keep the Toyota Echo at a constant hwy cruise. Imagine that throughout a daily acceleration/braking/cruise/stop/go cycle of a Hybrid it averages 20 – 25 HP w/ spurts of 75 – 100 HP for very short periods of time. If this is in fact close to the truth (I bet it is), all you would really need is a 75 – 100 HP imaginary motor/battery pack and a 30 – 40 HP ICE or Diesel to run in its perfectly efficient RPM continuously until the pack is at 80% charge. I pulled the 80% charge from the Prius battery discussions previously and it sounds like a great idea for battery pack longevity. The only problem with this imaginary vehicle is when climbing mountains. Eventually the Battery Pack runs low/dead and the ICE/Diesel must do all the work of driving the car up the hill/mountain. You can drive a 2500 # vehicle up a mountain with only 30 to 40 HP of electric power but you won’t be going 65 for long while doing so, that is for sure. ___Now back to the efficiency. What kind of mileage do you think you would get with a 30 to 40 HP Diesel or ICE running at its most efficient RPM and the low loss much higher power MG sets providing all the power? 100 mpg? 200 mpg? 300 mpg? The current HCH/Insight/Prius Hybrid’s are trying to attain 0 to 60 close to the magic 10 seconds thus the ICE has to provide the power vs. a large pack and motors needed for 75 - 100 HP operation. At least that is the way I see how Toyota and Honda are powering their Hybrid’s to this minimum std. > That isn't true 100% of the time. The threshold has other influencing factors allowing people to go above or below if the conditions are right. ___Who cares what the threshold is as this is a Hybrid (could be an Insight, HCH, or Prius shell) that should achieve 100 to 200 mpg, not the current Prius that attains a measly 45 to 50 … At 100 to 200 mpg, you can easily afford to use 100% Bio-diesel ($2.00 to $3.00 per gallon) in a Diesel equipped Hybrid and all energy and pollution issues disappear. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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Wayne, What the heck is the discussion topic now, current or theoretical designs? I thought the intent of this thread was to help those trying to make a purchase decision. Your twisting of my comments has veered you way off course. JOHN |
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Hi John1701a: ___My twisting of comments? Here are a few of your own over the last few pages … > HCH has only one advantage over Prius. No > Classic Prius is 72% cleaner. No > Classic Prius clearly does better. No > 2004 trumps 'em all! No > Many people also call Ford Explorer a "car". I hear that all the time and No > Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE. No > What's your point? Manuals have been that way since the beginning of time. > SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities. No > Reducing emissions sacrifices performance. No > If Prius was equal to the HCH manual in … it would gain acceleration & efficiency. No ___Did you want to bring up the 01-03 Prius in this thread again as well? ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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Wayne, The fact that you deny facts is the very reason I keep asking you to explain why. For example, you said NO to "Classic Prius is 72% cleaner". Why? SULEV is 72% lower in SMOG emissions than ULEV. How can you argue that it isn't? JOHN |
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Hi John1701a: ___Because the HCH is available as an SULEV with either the manual or the CVT, not just a ULEV. You can go look it up at Honda.com --> Honda Automobiles --> Honda Civic Hybrid --> Specifications. http://www.hondacars.com/models/specifications.asp?ModelName=Civi- c+Hybrid ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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You can't quote statistics from a ULEV then imply they match the SULEV, becaust they don't. That's my point. You must be explicit. Honda removes the lean-burn to achieve the cleaner emissions. That impairs both the acceleration and the efficiency. JOHN |
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Hi John1701a: ___Do you read what is posted at automobile manufacturers web sites? Honda states the same HP and Torque ratings between the ULEV and AT-PZEV vehicles and the HCH comes as either a CVT or a Manual in AT-PZEV format. The difference is in the fuel economy with the CVT swapping of its Hwy/City and the Manual losing 1 mpg in the EPA city rating. Here is it again for you real slow so you can understand it better. Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (AT-PZEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 45/51 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 46/51 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (AT-PZEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 47/48 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 48/47 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV or AT-PZEV) Horsepower  rpm (SAE net / with IMA): 85 5700 / 93 5700 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV or AT-PZEV) Torque (lb.-ft. rpm / with IMA): 87 3300 / 116 1500 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV or AT-PZEV) Horsepower rpm (SAE net / with IMA): 85 5700 / 93 5700 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV or AT-PZEV) Torque (lb.-ft. rpm / with IMA): 87 3300 / 105 3000 ___You stated the HCH was available only in ULEV trim w/ a Manual a few pages back and I have already gone over this 3 or 4 times. Read it this time. You also appear not to know how lean burn operates. It is only under the lightest of loads that lean burn will be invoked. When a Honda drops out of lean burn, it actually accelerates with an increase in HP under the new richer mixture. Lean burn is for maximizing mileage, not HP or torque in the case of the Hybrid Honda’s and the Civic CRX-HF from years gone by that I have read about. You can find out more about Lean-Burn from the Honda Insight members over at our favorite Honda Insight forum. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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> You also appear not to know how lean burn operates. I oversimplied to avoid confusion. The Honda terminology is "S" mode, which actually handles several components of performance. One of which is lean burn. > available only in ULEV Correct. SULEV is only available in limited locations. > losing 1 mpg in the EPA city rating Real-World data doesn't come close. Owners have reported a larger difference. Whatever the case, you are finally back on topic. Yeah! JOHN |
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