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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ? 
336 messages, Last post on Oct 26, 2007 at 11:07 AM
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> yes, the Civic Hybrid is less advanced As long as it can be competitive, who cares what technology is used. JOHN |
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| I think Toyota is planning to bring over the hybrid Estima. It said something in the year 2000 that they would promise an Estima Hybrid minivan for 2005. | |
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Hi John1701a: ___The rest of the world still calls both CVT’s. That is the fact, not fiction … > However, the CVT in Prius ALSO supports a SECOND motor, allowing it to create electricity at the same time. I'd like to see that accomplished with the other type of CVT. Why should that additional ability be ignored by lumping it into a single category? ___To the end user, who cares? The HCH’s CVT was almost as efficient as the 01-03 Prius so why would you call one different then the other because one can generate on the fly? Does the end user know this if it weren’t for the screen saying so? Does it matter that it is? NO. > Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE. So, the only way to increase power is to increase the size of a power source. That means the engine, the motor, or the voltage. Where exactly does the "manual" part fit? ___That is incorrect. The Manual based civic is apparently more efficient then either of the previous gen Prius or current HCH because it achieves both higher hwy mileage AND faster acceleration. In fact, it has the same hwy efficiency as the current Prius and achieves 0 to 60 almost as quick. Both the HCH and Prius use CVT’s that are Automatic’s. Do you know what the differences are between the Automatic in the Camry and the Automatic in the Corolla? The second question to ask is who cares what the differences are. They both achieve mobility with no user input and are seamless to the driver. How one generates electricity or not is immaterial given the much older tech Manual from the HCH achieves hwy efficiency equal to and acceleration almost equal to that of the current generation Prius because it is a manual! ___You seem to think the Prius receives all of its capabilities because of the CVT when in fact, the HCH manual shows up the First generation Prius’ CVT in acceleration and hwy efficiency. The 04 Prius uses a very similar if not an exact copy (I am guessing of course) of the 01-03 Prius’ CVT. Power from the ICE and battery packs can be applied in any number of ways and Toyota chose to apply the two power sources through the planetary gear set rather then a belt/cone setup with battery assist ala Honda’s IMA. The end user doesn’t or shouldn’t care. In fact, ask. The average (most) consumers could care less how it’s designed and wouldn’t care or understand if you told them how it was designed. They only want a system that gets them up to hwy speed or faster, back and forth to the grocery store, or down to grandma’s house with a minimum of input while achieving stellar mileage. Some might even care that they are doing so with a minimum amount of emissions as well. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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> That is incorrect. The Manual based civic Whoa! Talking about getting off topic. I asked about the PRIUS. Where exactly does the "manual" part fit? > more efficient What's your point? Manuals have been that way since the beginning of time. But since they only appeal to 10% of the market here (based on actual consumer purchases), expectations for sales can't be set much higher than that. But since the Planetary-CVT used by HSD competes so well and appeals to 90%, there is tremendous potential. > You seem to think the Prius receives all of its > capabilities because of the CVT when in fact, the > HCH manual shows up the First generation Prius’ > CVT in acceleration and hwy efficiency. And you seem to forget that the SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities. Reducing emissions sacrificies performance. If Prius was equal to the HCH manual in terms of SMOG emissions (that's ULEV), it would gain acceleration & efficiency. Are you happy now? You wanted the opportunity to share your thoughts. I hope this topic works out for you now that it's rolling. I'm going to shift focus back on the majority, those that are interested in HSD with the hopes of having it available later in the vehicle type they desire. JOHN |
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Hi John1701a: > Where exactly does the "manual" part fit? ___You brought up the Manual transmission not being able to be installed in a Prius … You and I both know Toyota could do whatever they wanted. > Manuals have been that way since the beginning of time. ___And the problem with that is? > And you seem to forget that the SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities. > Reducing emissions sacrifices performance. If Prius was equal to the HCH manual in terms of > SMOG emissions (that's ULEV), it would gain acceleration & efficiency. ___I don’t think so. Look the numbers up for yourself. PZEV-AT/SULEV while achieving 45/51w/ the Manual and 47/48 w/ the CVT. Same HP and Torque according to Honda. > You wanted the opportunity to share your thoughts … ___Actually, I wanted to make sure you didn’t hi-jack the thread with misnomers and misconceptions as follows: > CVT’s aren’t CVT’s if they are built by Toyota … > How much of a MPG sacrifice would you be willing to give up for the option simulated manual … > Why in the world would you want to that extra weight and additional cost … > Maximum torque and maximum efficiency are already provided by HSD. There's no way a manual interface could do any better … > HCH manual has only a single advantage over Prius … > Many people also call Ford Explorer a "car" … > Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE ... > Reducing emissions sacrifices performance … > And you seem to forget that the SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities … ___What above is correct given all the empirical evidence provided? ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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Gasoline engine has low range of usable torque, cannot produce torque at zero rpm (actually, at any rpm below 1000 or so), should always be running. Electric engine has ideal torque distribution with maximum torque at zero rpm, it can have higher rpms if needed, it does not need time to be "started" to produce power from standstill. This is why electric cars do not have gearbox and clutch, and gasoline cars do. Gasoline car suck, period. With proper engine gearbox and clutch are not needed. Well, Toyota could go easy way and create diesel locomotive out of a car: drop a generator on a gas engine, and connect electric motor to the wheels. Voila! But they would lose a lot of energy during conversion process. So, they decided to use both energy types: to use electric motor at start and low speeds, where it has the highest torque and gas engine is simply trying not to stall at idle, and to use gas engine connected mechanically (not electrically!) to the wheels, where it can produce usable torque. Thus HSD. THREE main devices: gasoline engine, generator and motor work in perfect harmony with planetary gearset which (what a coincidence!) has THREE rings/gears. This solution is brilliant and looks quite natural for a hybrid. Thus you CANNOT replace this gearset with any other gearbox, it simply will not work. But you can ADD a gearbox AFTER the electric motor, thus you would introduce another set of gears, but you can put smaller electric motor. Well, Toyota could do that. Or it could install bigger electric motor to improve start from the stop and forget about stupid transmissions. They chose the second option, which does not introduce any other gears into HSD. And it works. So, the question is: why would someone still want to add another gearbox? Will smaller electric motor allow to save weight of the car? I am not sure, becuase of added gearbox. |
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| we need to get back to the topic of comparing the Prius. It seems like all we're talking about is whether a manual transmission would fit in a Prius. Let's get back on topic. | |
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Hi Mikus: ___From my understanding, there are a few reduction gears outside the planetary based CVT. I will have to go back to the CVT construction earthlink pages linked in another Prius thread to verify however. ___Gasoline cars suck? How do you think the Prius goes 400 + miles then? Why does the Prius limit you to ~ 42 mph on electrics alone? Electric motors produce MAX torque at 0 RPM and fall off quickly thereafter. They are also limited to the motor construction as far as high RPM’s as well. If small electric motors didn’t operate in this fashion, Toyota and everyone else would simply let the ICE spin a generator at a true constant speed at its most efficient RPM (better yet, a high efficiency Honda diesel) for battery charging alone and the batteries would discharge through a motor(s) and transmission for motive force. When the batteries are above 80%, the ICE stops. When the Batteries are below 40%, the ICE starts. They might even be able to get rid of the transmission with GM’s Hybrid wheel motor/generators or similar altogether … Imagine the size ICE or diesel you would need and the mileage you would achieve if a Hybrid could be designed in this fashion? Step on the go pedal and you go  ___Oh well, since none of the threads automobiles have this capability or technology, it’s not worth discussing. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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> Gasoline cars suck? Yes, hybrids only sip gas. > Why does the Prius limit you to ~ 42 mph on electrics alone? To prevent overheating. Faster would require a larger (and consequently heavier) cooling system for the motor. It would also require the addition of a cooling system for the battery-pack. The battery-pack life would be shortened as well. > Toyota and everyone else would simply let the ICE spin > a generator at a true constant speed at its most efficient RPM Didn't read my post from yesterday, eh? I mentioned the increase in RPM from 6,000 to 10,000. Toyota did in fact implement the very thing you claim they couldn't. (Ha! Got ya!) > When the batteries are above 80%, the ICE stops. When > the Batteries are below 40%, the ICE starts. That isn't true 100% of the time. The threshold has other influencing factors allowing people to go above or below if the conditions are right. JOHN |
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