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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ? 
336 messages, Last post on Oct 26, 2007 at 11:07 AM
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Hi Mbukukanyau: ___You must have missed the 03/04 redesign. I won’t say that the new Corolla rides anything like a Camry because it isn’t even close but the 04 Prius didn’t improve upon the 03/04 Corolla in that regard either. They went cheap and tuned what they could out of the rear torsion beam setup. It’s junk but they saved money in production. The 02-04 Camry is truly a step above given its superior suspension and braking HW and there isn’t a darn thing any 04 Echo, 04 Corolla, or 04 Prius owner can do about it. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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> I thought the purpose of the CVT was to maintain the > engine at the peak torque curve. Tada! You just identified a big difference between the 2 types of CVT. CONE & BELT adjust to control the torque, just like you'd expect. PLANETARY redirects the torque, which is a fundamental difference that has overlooked when discussion "transmissions". > Use to a manual gave you better acceleration and better mileage. Maximum torque and maximum efficiency are already provided by HSD. There's no way a manual interface could do any better. If you believe that isn't true, explain. What propulsion component would you like to manipulate? > It was my understanding the CVT could not handle high horsepower That is correct. CONE & BELT would slip when the demand was too high. That's not the case for PLANETARY. Now are you beginning to see why I don't want to identify the 2 types generically as just "CVT"? JOHN |
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Hi John1701a: ___They both perform the same function of making the car go and both do it smoothly without driver interaction so why do you insist on calling one a CVT and another a something else CVT. Most everyone else calls both of them CVT’s? ___As for maximum’s, the Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a manual knocked hell out of the 01-03 Prius in performance yet the 04 is using the same basic CVT as the 01-03. I don’t think Toyota would have changed much, do you? ___We have the following data from an 02 Prius w/ CVT, an 03 HCH w/ CVT, and an 03 HCH w/ a Manual to compare against one another. I just don’t see that much difference in average mpg between the 2 CVT’s and the Manual (48.5 vs. 47.5 vs. 48.5) nor enough of a performance difference between the 2 CVT’s to say the Prius couldn’t do very well with a manual? I can see where some neat ideas are at work for transferring torque depending on the mode the Prius is in with its CVT but overall, I don’t believe it adds much over and above the efficiency of a manual given the far superior performance of a manual equipped HCH against a CVT equipped 02 Prius/03 HCH as shown below. Toyota could install a manual if they wanted but they would have to rework the HSD to do so. The CVT w/ multiple power input interactions is the path they took so we cannot do anything about that now of course. 02 Prius w/ CVT____52/45 - 12.7 seconds 0 to 60 03 HCH w/ CVT____48/47 - 13.5 seconds 0 to 60 03 HCH w/ Manual__46/51 - 10.9 seconds 0 to 60 ___I am sure this has been discussed in the past but it’s a nice refresher none the less … ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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cowboy, if you want to ADD manual or whatever any other transmission to HSD, you can do it, of course. You can even benefit from it, for example for easier start from standstill, where a lot of torque needed. Well, Toyota already put huge electic motor (what is it? 67hp against 13hp for Insight) to tackle with this problem. You can put a smaller electric motor and add a gearbox (manual or CVT) after it, but you would ruin the whole beauty of this setup, which is mechanically quite simple. Not saying that it will be huge and heavy. Why would not you get a Civic Hybrid? You would be able to row gears on your own, and you would know how your car works. > I guess for me a "manual transmission" is a "must" or a "need" not a "want". Would you like to have a fake horse in front of your car just because it is a proper way to pull a cart -- by a horse? No? Why do you want manual then? Manual transmission is just a technological burp meant to overcome gas engine imperfection. The only reason why you might need manual is to be sure that at any taken moment you can easily and precisely control the torque on the wheels merely by moving your foot despite all other variables involved. For sports driving, for example. Well, I do not think that adding manual gearbox to HSD would help you. The very moment you allowed computer to control engine rpms, battery charge process, power and the torque, you lost the immediate and predictable reaction of a car with manual transmission. Well, tanstaafl. |
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> I take it Mikus your are an automatic man. You cannot be more wrong. I own a Gen4 Camry with 3.0 V6 and (surprise!) manual 5-speed box. Toyota made only about 5% of these cars from the total production. This is a pure sleeper car: gray color, no fancy aluminum wheels. It now drives somewhat better with Tokico shocks and larger rear stabilizer. It has some zip and I like to feel 190 hp under my foot and it feels natural to apply exactly that amount of power that I want to. But you cannot stop progress. The problem with classic automatic is that it can shift up or down in the moment when you do not need it, say while you pass the icy turn. Which will put you into nice slide-and-twist dance. With manual you can control the torque on the wheels. Well, with CVT you can control the torque much better that with regular automatic, so CVT gives you relatively good control over the power, and better mileage. And Prius setup is a very logical one. So instead of having fun accelerating and sliding in turns, someone could have fun getting better mpg 
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> the Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a manual knocked hell out of > the 01-03 Prius in performance yet the 04 is using the > same basic CVT as the 01-03. You really need to step back and look at the big picture... HCH manual has only a single advantage over Prius, it does great with high-speed highway-only cruising. That's it. End of story. Classic Prius is 72% cleaner. The SULEV is drastically lower in SMOG emissions than the ULEV. There is also no contest when in stop & slow traffic, Classic Prius clearly does better. And the 2004 trumps 'em all! > I don’t think Toyota would have changed much, do you? Hello! The battery-pack was reduced from 273.6 volts to 201.6 volts then stepped up via the invertor to 500 volts. That is a huge power increase while at the same time reducing the size (AND COST!) of the battery-pack by 28%. And to top that, they increased the NiMH power-density too. Toyota also increased the size of the thrust-motor from 33kW to 50kW. That's a very significant muscle improvement. They also increased the engine 500 RPM and the generator-motor 4000 RPM. These are major improvements, all without a price increase. JOHN |
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Hi John1701a: > Hello ___Do you have a clue as to what I am asking you? You are first telling us the Prius CVT or the HCH shouldn’t be called a CVT because they are constructed differently. The rest of the world on the other hand still calls both CVT’s. They both provide the end user a smooth automatic and both appear to be less efficient then the Manual in both highway mileage and acceleration. I asked you if the 04 Prius’ CVT has changed significantly from the 01-03 and then you start on the dissertation of the entire HSD? The Manual in a HCH not only improves upon hwy mileage, it is also quite a bit QUICKER then the CVT’s of either platform. What if the Prius had its HSD rigged with a manual instead? Would it not have better acceleration then even the slowest of all Toyota’s lineup worth comparing (Toyota Echo w/ an Automatic)? With the CVT, the 04 Prius doesn’t even beat that! Would a manual equipped Prius also pollute less on the hwy with superior mileage (lower CO2 and CO/NOx/HC here) over the CVT as so equipped? From the looks of the data on 01-03 Prius vs. 03 HCH CVT vs. the 03 HCH Manual, I can almost guarantee that it would. Remember, the HCH is available as a PZEV-AT with both the CVT and the MANUAL. Both are rated as SULEV’s just like the 04 Prius as well. I just cannot find any Smog-Forming emission amounts on them other then their city/hwy mileage capabilities right now. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
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| yes, the Civic Hybrid is less advanced, but Honda plans a hybrid Accord, CR-V, Odyssey and almost a hybrid version for every car in their model line. I read this stuff on vtec.net, which has a new Honda matrix detailing when and what they think are going to come out. They've been pretty accurate with the Accord, Element, Accord Coupe, TL and Odyssey so far. | |
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> The rest of the world on the other hand still > calls both CVT’s. Many people also call Ford Explorer a "car". That's doesn't make it correct. > They both provide the end user a smooth automatic > and both appear to be less efficient then the Manual However, the CVT in Prius ALSO supports a SECOND motor, allowing it to create electricity at the same time. I'd like to see that accomplished with the other type of CVT. Why should that additional ability be ignored by lumping it into a single category? > What if the Prius had its HSD rigged with a manual instead? Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE. So, the only way to increase power is to increase the size of a power source. That means the engine, the motor, or the voltage. Where exactly does the "manual" part fit? JOHN |
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