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Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ? - READ ONLY

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What is this discussion about? Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Honda Civic, Hybrid Cars

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#31 of 336 if we are going by nippononly Dec 01, 2003 (1:29 pm)
to classify types of transmissions, it would be just as accurate to say Prius has no transmission at all. It is closer to this than to a conventional CVT. The electric motor is what transmits the power from the ICE to the wheels. It is essentially the "transmission" in this case - it can turn at differential rates (this is the layman's explanation - can you tell?). If you removed it, the car could not run. I do know you are not supposed to run Prius out of gas - in other words you are not supposed to run it even for short distances at low speeds on the electric alone.   wayne: we do have the PZEV Camry here now - have had it for almost a year in fact. It is really too bad they have not brought out a PZEV corolla, but I think folks here have hit it on the head: too much competition for Toyota's own Prius, given that corolla's mileage is already in the high 30s. BTW, the old SULEV and ULEV are gone now, but there is a ULEV-II and a LEV-II which have taken their place. Of course, those are all California and CA states ratings (NY, MA, ME, VT). The new federal system is a mess: ULEV-II corresponds to the federal rating tier 2-bin 5 I think.
#33 of 336 by xcel Dec 01, 2003 (2:10 pm)
Hi Mikus:   ___Even though those links have probably been passed around the Hybrid community more then a few times, it was the first time I have read the pages myself. I have read portions of the same from any number of forum members including John1701a in any number of Hybrid forums but couldn’t put the whole thing together … Even now I still only understand 30 to 40% of what was presented but I have got to hand it to whomever came up with that multi-powered gear set - planetary gear set arrangement. They did a heck of a job for the various modes the Prius is driven through. MG1, MG2, and the ICE all work in concert depending on the Prius’ drive mode/demand at any given instant. It sounds as if the Author’s thought’s on even better efficiency were incorporated into the 04 Prius (EV only mode on initial movement or even colder temps for longer periods) but the unity of the whole thing still has me pretty amazed.   ___I thought the Prius engine on a dynamometer? over at Argonne Lab’s was kind of cute as well. Reverse engineering a Japanese device to see what it is good for is money well spent in my book instead of the Japanese reverse engineering what the US used to design and build. It appears like a simple Atkinson cycle so not much was garnered but the efficiency still speaks for itself …   ___I still have great hopes for the worlds automobile technology advances given the Ford seed money to various US University’s working on the Explorer efficiency design challenges and/or any number of similar projects. Some of these include diesel/Hybrid power trains and that University of TX? Turbine style Star/Ring power mechanism but I am still perplexed as to why none of these ideas are on the road and available today given all the money the US Automobile and Government has spent with literally nothing to show for it over the last 100 years.   ___Oh well, I guess I can still wait for the Perpetual Motion or Cold Fusion experiments to bare fruit. I have been waiting for 20 + odd years for them as well and will probably be too old to enjoy these whiz bang non-starter/non-achievements. After all is said and done, at least the Prius is on the road today … It is still darn expensive for the efficiencies gained however.   ___Nippononly, I know. Our 03 MDX is a ULEV-II w/ the older ULEV going out with the 02’s. Honda added another CAT and opened up the intake and exhaust to achieve even better results. It resulted in a very small amount of emissions: 5.3 – 6.3 #’s of Smog-Forming pollution per 15,000 miles outside of California and 2.8 – 4.1 if purchased/driven within … and VT., NY., MA, ME. etc. Not bad for a 4500 # SUV and I have squeezed over 30 mpg on long hwy stretches more then once out of the beast just to limit its CO2 production. Or was it just to save the cost in fuel? I forget   ___Good Luck   ___Wayne R. Gerdes
#34 of 336 manual sacrifice by john1701a Dec 01, 2003 (3:03 pm)
> if someone really understands why a manual transmission > is not offered I would appreciate and explanation   A simple explanation is that the system redirects power too often and too quickly for any human to ever keep up with.   Could you handle shifting anywhere from 10 to 30 times per minute the entire time you drive?   That's what HSD does. Slower responses means lower efficiency. How much of a MPG sacrifice would you be willing to give up for the option of a by-wire simulated manual?   JOHN
#35 of 336 Why CVT? by mikus Dec 01, 2003 (4:25 pm)
<midnightcowboy> Okay so the references show a power split device. This is a simple engineering concept that has nothing to do with the transmission. It could just as well be an automatic transmission or a manual transmission. </midnightcowboy>   If one can understand "simple engineering concept" of the power split device, the reason for using solely this type of transmission should be quite clean. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but try to read this time.   <midnightcowboy> I have read the Prius descriptions and understand them. But I will ask again why can't there be other transmissions than CVT ? CVT does provide an easy way to keep an engine at peak torque curve, but not everyone wants a CVT transmission. It is cool new technology and it is what Toyota chose to implement in their HSD offering in the Prius. </midnightcowboy>   In the ideal world transmission itself is totally redundant piece of hardware. It was invented only because classic gas engine is a piece of junk from the physical point of view: it should always be running, it has very limited usable rpm limits and its torque curve is nothing to be fond of. Electric cars work without gearboxes and clutches, and this is as close to the perfect world as you can get.Electric motor has the perfect torque curve with the maximum torque at zero rpm. And electric motor does not need to rotate when car stands still. The only problem is that you need to get this electricity from somewhere.   So the setup used on Prius is the way to combine the kinetic energy from the gas engine and electric energy from the battery. Well, they could just use a huge generator with the gas engine and feed the electricity to the electric engine, but they would lose more energy. Their solution has quite simple mechanic scheme - only one constantly meshed gearset, no clutches, no shifts. So what is not to like? Prius does not have transmission in its classic sense as a separate device. The "energy transmission process" is spread through the whole HSD system, it cannot be broken apart, it is a whole thing. So the "HSD" is not just some marketing bs, it is indeed what it is called: a sinergy.
#36 of 336 Prius comparisons by jchan2 Dec 01, 2003 (4:45 pm)
I am now literally out of the entry level luxury shopping game (less entry level lux to look at for me) and looking at one of the following: Toyota Prius Honda Civic Hybrid Toyota Camry Honda CR-V Infiniti I35 Acura TSX Saab 9-3 Honda Accord Toyota RAV4 Volvo S40 So, which one should I go for? Each one is attracting me, but I can't buy all of them! Whether I should go for the Prius, since I'm going to get a long commute, or the Volvo for prestige (I got a raise!) or the CR-V for the cargo room, I don't know which one I should take a closer look at and which ones I should not even glance back at.
#38 of 336 why? by john1701a Dec 02, 2003 (7:41 am)
> Anyway the HSD system could still exist and connect to > the wheels via a conventional automatic transmission > or a manual shift transmission.   Why in the world would you want to that extra weight and additional cost?   Explain what your requirements are.   What do you want the extra transmission to accomplish?   JOHN
#40 of 336 Test driven each Model Year since 1998 by mbukukanyau Dec 02, 2003 (9:44 am)
for Corolla, and Camry. I own a 1990 Corolla, My G friend 2002 Corolla   Verdict   Corolla-Tacky cheap   Camry-Smooth Quite   Camry any time

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