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What is this discussion about? Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Honda Civic, Hybrid Cars

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#280 of 336 Re: Toyota Prius v. Honda Civic Hybrid [Sylvia] by hkl Dec 02, 2005 (8:54 pm)
Replying to: Sylvia (Nov 07, 2005 6:16 pm) Sylvia, thanks for sharing the site. I have also seen a comparison test report which says basically the same results. For a long time, I can't believe how the published fuel economy for the Prius is SO MUCH better than the Honda civc hybrid. Toyota knows that its numbers are exaggerated. I am disappointed at its dis-honesty. I happen to talk to a Prius owner ( of two years )and he is not too impressed by the hype on his car's high mileage either. He is mildly disappointed by the numbers his Prius is getting. Of course, I thought he was just a rare case at the time of conversation. Replies to this message: falconone (Dec 03, 2005 5:05 am)
#281 of 336 Re: Toyota Prius v. Honda Civic Hybrid [hkl] by falconone Dec 03, 2005 (5:05 am)
Replying to: hkl (Dec 02, 2005 8:54 pm) You can't blame Toyota, blame the EPA. They are the ones that set the standards for how the tests are conducted. Also read the fine print! Below those mileage numbers are ranges for that type of car size. YMMV. I know many people who get mid to high 40s with mixed driving and they're very pleased. It will be interesting to see real world numbers for the new Civic.
#282 of 336 Safety in a Hybrid by jonallen Jan 02, 2006 (11:00 am)
I have been a ZipCar member in Boston since 10/2000, and I have borrowed from the pool of Toyota Prius and been rather impressed. When I first borrowed the HCH, I was even more so. The handling is superb, the smoothness of ride delightful, the quiet sublime. I now work 20 miles from home, and as a result pushed ZipCar from being my only car to being my second car. The 2006 Civic Hybrid which I now own is still impressing me.
#283 of 336 Why Prius is a "No Brainer" safety choice over Civic by koolkinkajou Jan 12, 2006 (4:31 am)
Two missing features “Traction Control” and especially ESC (Electronic Stability Control) are major failings of the new 2006 Honda Civic. By not making ESC available, Honda is missing out on one of the major advancements in safety in the last ten years.   To put things in perspective, check out Now try it without ABS, EBD, ESP, EBA .. which is an article about people who normally drove cars with these safety features, and who were than put in cars without them. While they may not have known they had them in their own cars, they noticed something was very wrong in a car that did not have them. It's not specifically about ESC and traction control but I think you can get the idea. The Volvo S70 they refer to has a more sophisticated version of ESC.   I just saw another article which says the 2006 Sonata will have "Standard ESC" for under 20k. When Hyundai which most Honda owners laugh adds more safety features than good Old Honda, one of the most auto prestigious companies you know there's something rotten in the state of Denmark/Japan!   Here are two quotes from the Insurance Institute for Safety From http://www.iihs.org/news/2004/iihs_news_102804.pdf   “…About half of the 28,000 fatal passenger vehicle crashes that occur each year involve a single vehicle. Equipping cars and SUVs with electronic stability control (ESC) can reduce the risk of involvement in these crashes by more than 50 percent. The effect on all single-vehicle crashes (fatal and nonfatal) is somewhat less (about 40 percent), and the effect on multiple-vehicle crashes is much less. These are the main findings of a new Insurance Institute for Highway Safety study comparing crash rates for cars and SUVs with and without ESC…”   “….Together these studies, including the Institute’s new one, indicate that widespread application of ESC in the vehicle fleet can be expected to afford a significant safety benefit. If all vehicles on U.S. roads had ESC, we might avoid as many as 800,000 of the 2 million or so single-vehicle crashes that occur each year. About 14,000 fatal single vehicle crashes occurred in 2003, which means there’s a potential to save more than 7,000 lives each year…”   So Honda has made a deal with the devil and traded safety for styling and the “Car of the Year” award (which is probably given to the biggest bribe anyway) . The bottom line, is you can’t take that award into the operating room at the hospital! Replies to this message: midnightcowboy (Jan 12, 2006 6:28 am)
#284 of 336 Re: Why Prius is a "No Brainer" safety choice over Civic [koolkinkajou] by midnightcowboy Jan 12, 2006 (6:28 am)
Replying to: koolkinkajou (Jan 12, 2006 4:31 am) Actually, stability control is not that important on FWD cars.   Electronic skid control is very important on top heavy vehicles such as SUVs.   Electronic skid control is more beneficial on RWD cars because when you enter a turn too fast the rear end slids ut and is harder to control by the normal user. On FWD you merely skid forward with lcoked wheels instead of turning. Easier to control.   In the case of FWD skid control it is useful if a driver has inclement conditions (indecending order: snow, ice, rain) and tends to drive TOO FAST for the conditions. For 99% of FWD dreiver they will never activate electonic skid control. And of that 1% that do actiavate it, having it will only prevent an accident in 5% of the cases.   While Skid control does provide a safety balnket for drivers who drive too fast for the condition and SUV drivers in genral, it provides only a insignificant benefit for FWD cars.   The 2006 Honda Civic is an excellent car, especially the manual 6-speed Civic Si Coupe in Rallye Red!   koolkinkajou said:   "So Honda has made a deal with the devil and traded safety for styling and the “Car of the Year” award (which is probably given to the biggest bribe anyway) . The bottom line, is you can’t take that award into the operating room at the hospital! "   What a uninformed, sour grapes statement! Honda is one of the safest cars available. If there were any truth at all in the above statement, then it would be mandatory that ALL cars had electonic skid control as a standard feature!   From Brains,   MidCow   P.S.- I never have learned to drive an automatic or I would hvae considered a Prius!
#285 of 336 IIHS Gold vs. ESC by ateixeira Jan 12, 2006 (7:46 am)
There are 2 issues to discuss, active safety, such as ESC you mention, but also passive safety.   Civic won the Gold award from the IIHS for passive safety in frontal offset/side crash tests and headrest evaluations. That can't be ignored.   Fact is, indeed you might collide, but to say you'll end up in the hospital after the Civic won Gold (Prius didn't make the top 10) is very unfair to Honda.   -juice
#286 of 336 Re: Road noise is mainly bad on the coupes [hchinsandiego] by earth Jan 12, 2006 (10:18 am)
Replying to: hchinsandiego (Dec 02, 2005 4:46 pm) I have the coupe 06 EX, and no, its not real noisy. Had the 03 Corolla, and its was noisier than the new civic. Next car will be the Prius though. Don't believe some of those that say its noisy, its just not true and don't know what they are talking about or have it in for the honda.
#287 of 336 ESD in a hybrid by jonallen Jan 12, 2006 (10:52 am)
It is true that ESD can avoid a certain percentage of accidents, and that Honda has made the trade-off (for now) of making the top of the passive protection pile instead of following others. The main benefit of ESD is to be seen in rear-drive vehicles, especially when excessive speed is involved. Since people who are inclined to buy hybrids are also inclined to drive more conservatively, this lack of ESD is even less significant.
#288 of 336 NONE OF THE ABOVE by midnightcowboy Jan 12, 2006 (12:53 pm)
I actually looked at all three candidates, for brevity Prius=P, Honda Civic Hybrid=C, Insight=I   I decided what my goals were:   (1) good miles per gallon (2) relaible (3) maual transmission (4) fun-to-drive ( some performance, some handling) (5) cost effectiveness- not just mpg savings (6) features   Now add Now 2006 Honda Civic SI 6-speed coupe w/NAV = S   (1) P=++, C=++ I=+++ S=+ (2) P=+++ C=+++ I=+++ S=+++ (3) P=--- , C=2005 ++ C=2006 ---, I=++ S=+++ (4) P=-- , C=-- , I=- S=+++ (5) P=-- , C=+ , I=+ S=+ (6) P=+++ , C=++ , I=+ , S=++   H'mm it looks like the following ranking:   First = 2006 Honda Civic SI Second = 2005 HCH 5-speed manual Third= 2006 Insight 5-speed FOURTH= 2006 HCH CVT FIFTH= 2006 Prius CVT   These results are a small sampling and may not be scientifcially accurate. Also, you opions, testing and findings may vary. It is just that I have found the only way hybrids are better is in mpg and that all folk's as Porky Pig used to say.   Double sixes,   MidCow Replies to this message: jonallen (Jan 12, 2006 1:28 pm)
#289 of 336 Re: NONE OF THE ABOVE [midnightcowboy] by jonallen Jan 12, 2006 (1:28 pm)
Replying to: midnightcowboy (Jan 12, 2006 12:53 pm) Hey Cowboy, I agree with you on most counts. Hybrids aren't as fun to drive as they should be, because too much of them is automated. If I could manually operate the engine shutoff, it would be much more efficient, since at present it frequently kills itself just before the light turns green, and I could manually shift it on my ride to work more efficiently than even the ECVT, which is pretty hard to beat anywhere but on the highway. I used to drive a Justy, which got me better than 50mpg just from my 'gentle touch' driving habits. It got crumpled between a pickup truck and a guard rail after Subaru stopped shipping them over here. You shouldn't have to buy an expensive hybrid in order to get a reasonably safe and efficient car, but I am not about to drive around with a highly explosive tank of natural gas, so here I am with an '06 HCH.

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